Chris Smoje: Why People Really Buy

This transcript was generated automatically and lightly edited for readability. It may contain minor errors, and speaker labels are not yet added.

An artist never finishes a painting. They abandon it. Authenticity is why people buy, why people engage. Authenticity is huge.

When you get it fully and get your own stuff fully just, you know, your message. Yeah. The getting up and speaking part I believe is quite easy. Then I got to a point where I needed to start creating.

And the more stuff you had, you just needed to get it out of your out of your mind. So, I got Chris here just in case what about the sound? Chris Mayer, uh long-term friend. Um it's a bit of a double up on the sound.

We're just talking about uh the last 10 years in business and um one moment when I uh watch Chris speak in front of a heap of insurance brokers and we're talking about how efficient or quick McDonald's is, but not perfect. And you know what? You I I couldn't remember, you nailed it there. I think the piece the sacrifice piece uh for perfection with from convenience and speed.

That's what it is, isn't it? Oh, totally. Yeah. And and but it's what's important to people.

They want to, you know, but every business is different, right? Like another business can't be like that because Mackers is there for that reason. Well, go back to the story. It was all about punching the burgers out, right?

Like go back to the base. That's it's the same thing still. That that's what they that's what they were created for. I think they sold, didn't they?

And then whoever bought it just really flipped. excuse the pun on its head and just um was all about efficiency and getting them out and they're they're changing like with they're trying to remove friction like you've got the app. What do you think of that? I never use it, right?

I don't go enough though. People that go all the time when we go Yeah. We we'll do the app, you know, that way. Yeah.

You're not, you know, stunned at the the menu looking you just you can order and you that way you know that you've keyed it in, right? Yep. You just tap the card sometimes without talking to someone. It's not about wanting to talk, but it's they're removing the firstly they're making it maybe I I'd say they're making it harder for for us as a customer because we've got to do more work, but we get more control.

We get we get we know that what we're keying in is going to be right, you know, and then they can push us through quicker because they're not relying on someone keying things in. And I reckon, you know, I I actually say, you know, we should record it on this date that I reckon, you know, one day you you'll look back on this podcast. I reckon mackers one day are going to have a conveyor belt like a car wash. uh that's going to be pushing cars through.

You just put the car in neutral and they'll be pumping the cars through that way. I reckon if you bookmark this podcast because think about it. I I always ask this. How many globally, right?

Globally, I just want to hear from you just, you know, I know you're the one asking the questions, but tell me this, right? Globally, how many cars do you reckon break down in a Macka's drive-thru every day? Globally. Wow.

I don't know. No idea. Like like globally, like surely Yep. 10 10 car globally 10 cars a day around the world must downund there's thousands how many magazines I don't know I that's my point there's tens of thousands there's got to be something that they're going you know what how do we just make sure the cars keep moving through they're going to they're doing amazing stuff so you know even if the burgers don't come out right there's other things you remember that everyone's got their little piece I think when they go to Mac is like if I buy it a lot of time I throw it out but it's always a But it's like double cheeseburger, triple cheeseburger.

It's like probably 11:00 at night. Oh yeah. Bit hungry. Oh, I love it.

Triple cheeseburger pickles onion. And then there's the whole pickle debacle. My ex-wife, she loved them. Hated them.

Like the whole pickle thing. Are you a pickle man? I'm I'm pickle man. Yeah.

But I wouldn't like Yeah. It depends what burger get. But if I'm making my own burgers, yeah, definitely, you know, nice American burger. Yeah.

Definitely pickles backers. Yeah. I don't know. It doesn't It doesn't You know, Simple's better, but Yeah.

So, so last 10 years, man. So, we started roughly the same time, which is awesome. And, um, I think that's why, you know, we don't see each other much, haven't seen each other much, but we can get back and we just click. It's so good.

You put a post out a couple of weeks ago and and I remember it was one of those, you know, it's one of those posts that you that for me, you'd have to have a lot of courage to say what I what I was what I wanted to say. You put something out around on my balcony, actually. I know. You can have mates that you know something like true friends or something like that are the ones that you know not not the ones you don't see every day but the ones that if you don't see them for a year or whatever you can just pick up straight away and I remember I was like well I think I'm in that category you were in that category with me cuz we haven't spoken for you know it's I checked it was like 2023 so it's actually been a good couple of years and I I was like and cuz obviously we're not working at the same location anymore that's a big deal we shared an office that's kind of the the big reason um I still get your mail by the Um there's still some It's one of those things the mail doesn't stop, right?

no matter what you do. And I I replied to you and I was like, "Yeah, like yeah, man. I'm I'm that guy." And then yeah, we just caught up and uh it's like old time. And that's I suppose go back to the post and like lately I've been trying to do more of it, more authentic and I really obviously learn a lot about people pretty good at people skills and you think got it and then you go and learn a lot, right?

And then I think that was the point out of that one and it's like the circles get smaller and all that kind of stuff. But even out of that post, if all I got out of it is you send it and you message me and now you're sitting here on the podcast, it's like it's epic. And and I mean I'll I'll make it I don't want to blow smoke up your backside about how how special you are, but here we are. I I'll grab my phone just to double check, but you know, you said, "What are you doing today?" And I was like, "Uh, well, I'm supposed to be watching Croatia play Panama um this morning in the World Cup." And you know, I'm Croatia, right?

And uh and that's that's the the important part there. And I was like, well, you know, Paul for you, man. I'll I'll jump on. So, we're Croatia is still one uh one nil at 75 minutes.

So, um hopefully they hold it. Hey. Yeah, that's right. Hopefully.

Yeah, I'm not not jittery at all while while we're recording, but no, it's it's good to be here. Totally. No, it's awesome. I um I'm stoked to have you on and actually your name's.

It's funny cuz bit of business stuff and uh talking about Dave Cla, which obviously, well, we both met him when I was in your office. Been doing some stuff with him. He was actually the first podcast I recorded him and Levi and um and then I'm talking to him about like just onboarding employees and that about you know the whole leadership and culture and then your name's actually come up a bit to reach out to you. So it's just funny how it's happened all Dave's a good mate.

There was three people. There was you for the customer service bit. There's a leadership culture and then there's a self-care piece and that like from um Julian happiness co and and I'm like I want to really drive and get them. I reckon there are three attributes besides business, legal and accountancy that really need to be brought into a business or a brokerage or it doesn't matter what it is.

um when people are coming on because I think they're the foundations right now. I get now and my customer service went downhill the last two years because I was a bit of a roller coaster, you know, divorce, all all that stuff. Yeah. And I learn a lot from that and it's probably what why resonates with me because the customer experience um the service, the response and I call it client engagement in our business and I'm usually really good at it.

But obviously when you drop the ball, you realize and um and I I put my hand up for that. But the comeback from that and getting it right is a bit it's a big ass chicken and it's like instead of dwelling on it, it's like looking in a windscreen mirror and not the rearview mirror and um getting someone like you on which um it'd be really good to talk a bit more about. Um you're probably the first one to really dive into that that I knew there's not many people out there like you doing the whole customer service. People don't really want it until they want it.

Yeah, I I sort of Yeah, you don't I mean I'd love to agree with you and I and I do agree with you that you know I'd like to think there's not a lot of people out there and that's I think in business probably a bad thing because I reckon you know like car dealerships they're all next door to each other. Um, so it creates a bit of competition, but you know, you know, buying cars is a thing, right? The psychology behind that. It's like the Mackers in KFC and all that all around.

And and I think the the problem still exists and as I said, I've been doing this, you know, 16 years, which as I keep saying is not a long time because, you know, there's still that stigma where where people talk to you and they go, "Oh, you know, they think of customer service and they think that, you know, I'm teaching people how to answer the phone within three minutes, how to smile, how to smile when you're at the reception counter." And the the reality is is that I actually spend more time and it's we can I don't know if we're going to get into it, but I spend more time working with clients that don't have those traditional frontline roles. I I don't do and I'll tell you it's a funny story, but I I don't do retail. I don't do hospitality. I mean, I'm happy to, but I don't do don't do all of those those cliche um front end service that you think.

Um I tell you what, hospitality could take take some learnings. Like there's only one or two places I really go everyone should, you know, uh watch or learn off them. But hostility is really hard. Goes back to the PE young people churn.

I think it's hard to get people. I think that's a big piece, right? Sorry, keep going. One of Well, it's funny.

One of the things, this is where I sort of maybe learned a lot. I I I started in the tourism and leisure industry. Um, and we were chatting about interesting Adventure World before. Um, one of the things that I know, you know, collectively as a team, we did well at Adventure World is it was a seasonal workforce.

Um but we you know we had a reasonable training budget but we made sure that we supported and and developed a seasonal team to execute right. Yeah. And I remember we at one one point I went to a an industry skills seminar. It was at Crown and they had all these you know um players from the tourism and and and hospitality industry there and you know people from Broom and Konara came down and and we're sitting there and and I'm I'm listening to the people in the room.

I actually that was a moment for me. Um people are you know they're trying to say how do we make you know training more engaging? How do we get more skills developed in the sector and it was a real push to to get some you know good service skills out of the the tourism sector and people were putting their hands up and they were saying you know we can't invest because we've got backpackers. We we can't invest cuz they're only going to be here 3 months.

You know we can't you know you know they're only here for a uni job. They're only here for a summer job. Um, and I'm sitting there, I was representing, you know, the company and and I'm sitting there and I'm just going, "You're seasonal." Yeah, we're seasonal. Um, you know, we're we're we're pumping through training ships where we're where we're we're delivering, you know, pretty pretty decent induction training, you know, onboarding cultural stuff.

Um, and since I've left, it's only got even got even more. There are so many businesses that just at that point just don't don't invest in in the front line for that reason, cuz they're seasonal. They're transient. And that was where there's still a benchmark though, isn't there?

Like when you're on boarding people, there's still got to be a benchmark of where you can sit. You might not be here, you know, the same as people been at the same company for 5 years, but there's still you still don't want to be here. You still got to go to a certain point even if you're seasonal. And is that the onboarding induction, the training?

It is too. But and that's where it was funny. We were talking about um our our you know mutual mate Dave CLA before and that's that's an interesting thing that I' I've spoken at one of his events and I know it's what I love about how the message relates so well because you've got you know service is effectively I mean it's a it's a topic in itself but it's part of culture it's part of leadership it's it's something that that organizations have to embrace and it's almost like a no-brainer like you were saying before about you know putting those three things together it's a no-brainer you know how can you have a a leadership conference you know without without talking about service um I admire a lot of Um a lot of futurists they call you know they're referred to as futurists these days and they're talking about trends and and fundamentally the the the the message comes back through any trend whether it's you know AI technology whatever's happening in the future it all comes down to are you serving your customer effectively you know how what value does this have to to customers how are we reaching customers we make no matter what you're doing tech or anything it comes back to that at that first point and maybe like insurance with you, you know, it's it's one of those things that, you know, your premium becomes really important when when you need it. Um, or when there's a claim, um, or you only think about it at renewal time and and and and I guess the same thing is with service, you know, it's it's what is it?

It's like the wind. You can't what's the analogy? It's like the wind. You can't see it, but you can feel it.

Or it's not there, you can feel it. And I think the absence of service. Well, well, even purchasing anything, whether it's an object or a car or whatever, it's all feeling, right? And it's the same even if it's service based.

It's like what's the feeling at the end of it or the the journey, the experience, you know, um that you go on. Yeah. Um tell tell us before we go I'm going to before I go hop back back and forwards with a bit of your journey. What um tell us about maybe a client you're working on now or you know the last 12 months.

I know you've had a bit of a roller coaster last year or two business. You know what it's it's interesting we and it's funny one of the reason as well. Well tied to family. Yeah.

One of the things I was thinking um you know of course you know you you've had a roller coaster too and there's been like many reasons why we haven't caught up and I reckon the main one is is it's me. It's not you it's me. But you know we've got three kids. Are you breaking up with Are you breaking up with me?

It's not you. It's me. I'm broken up with you for for my wife and three kids. We've got um you know since 2020 we had a we had a co baby right in the in the in the thick of co um and we've we've had two more since then.

We've got three boys now. Um they're they're virtually two, four, and and six. And they they are they keeping us busy a lot. So it's about time for another one, another two.

Oh, it would be technically we're we're done. And it's it's on on recording that I think three boys is enough. I would have liked a girl, but you know, it's it's um it is what it is. But you know, we we spent in the last year a lot of uh time just getting the house more suitable for, you know, kids.

all those projects that you don't do because of co um maternity leave, you know, spending time together with with with family. Um I lost my dad late last year as well. So, you know, it it shows that family is is really, you know, is is key, right? And just just just on that, I'm going to jump in there and you'll get used to this.

Um you know, um I didn't know your dad very well. Um but obviously met him over the years and rented the office off him and stuff. But um me and you spoke the other day about this like how how much that just gives you a bit of an ass kicking you know losing someone or when they get sick or you know all that and everything goes out the window right and and how appreciative and how important all that is even business and everything kind of it's all all out the window right as soon as someone's sick or passes it's a bit of a realization I think maybe that's where you're going a tiny bit and I well I remember you know he died early October and it's you know I remember just you know just before you know and it was you know he wasn't well but relatively unexpected and I remember end of September remember I was looking at the calendar and I was like, you know, we just done a a pretty big backyard renovation. Um, you know, you're watching plaster dry or something.

I'll tell you about that. I was watching watching render to dry. Um, all of that sort of stuff. And and I sort of looked at the last quarter of the year and I was like, you know, yeah, the last quarter's always, you know, it is always busy.

You know, financial year is in full swing. People want things done before before Christmas. It is actually a good time. And even more so, Christmas, you know, in these days, you know, the decorations are up early.

people get nervous and they they want to do stuff, you know, by mid- November. Before that, it's Christmas. So, I was gearing up for a relatively, you know, full-on end to the year and, you know, and I was I was actually quite pumped, quite excited. And then and then, um, dad passed away, you know, it was the 8th of October.

And, and I just remember the year was effectively then over. And I remember even, you know, doing even just emails. Emails, I reckon, is the worst. I I generally, you know, I'm pretty good with emails.

I keep a pretty pretty, you know, dry inbox. The nature of my work is that I'm not, you know, getting 300 emails a day or anything like that. But I just remember and response is important to me and it is, you know, you know, get get it out just, you know, don't don't hold on to things. And I remember, you know, between, you know, early October right through to sort of October, November, December, I just wasn't, you know, wanting to respond to emails.

And but it wasn't that I was, you know, I mean, you call it maybe a form of grief or or grieving or whatever, but for me, I was just like it's it's just not important. It just wasn't important. And I think I'd mentally sort of, you know, checked out for the year and and I think that's the interesting thing that we're we're always under the pump of, you know, you got to respond early. You've got to do this, you've got to do that.

And for me, you know, you know, I just it it wasn't wasn't a priority. Sometimes it was even, you know, just chilling on the couch at night, you know, um, you know, watching TV with my wife and the kids were in bed and I could have always just jumped on there and just just answered a few emails, but but I never never sort of did. And, um, it was just a, you know, it just shows you what's what's important, what's not important, and, you know, I guess whoever's in that situation just makes their mind up. It's it's only what we create, right?

Like we can all be busy busy, but like and go back to the the health piece, whether it's us being sick or the kids or, you know, someone passing. I think that's what you realize like we create the noise or the busyiness that's going on and and I've been one of the worst and it's like but then you can always find time when you want. That's why this whole busy word busy and all that's a a big struggle. Not a struggle but everyone can say that busy.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like what's productive and what's priority. That's right.

Um, but to answer I haven't answered your question though. I I want to say because I'm really this is really you know excited because you know obviously we all go through tough times but but since since then one of the things that I've been working on for the last sort of few years probably actually since you and I last caught up y 23 years 23 yeah I I've really um found that I don't like to use the word niche but I my message is really resonating with local government. Local government. you did say that when you said, you know, who do I live working with at the moment?

Um I I find that you know when you can get a whole you know local government area in a room together and I'm talking about people from you know we joke before about you know frontline roles but you've got different people of different um of different makes up and you got you know it's not just it's not just you know front end and rangers and parking inspectors you know there are there are you know well educated people who are you know you know developers they're surveyors they're working with planners they're working with multi you know million billion dollar companies providing service And if you can get all these people together in a room, this what I love about local government is that every almost every person in a in a council, if it's a council of you know 50 people, 250 people and thousand people, they touch the customer in some way. Um they touch the the the rateayer in some way and it's all about service and and I'm you know on the on the back of you know and I've been working on it for a good couple of years just to to really sharpen you know the message and and really you know respond to I think a really growing need. That's that's really where I'm focusing most of my time. It's just so exciting.

That's awesome. So, what what kind of stuff will you do like uh like that? Like what what gets talked about from a guy sitting in the office being a planner or whatnot? Like what what how do you impact them?

How do they impact the client? One of the things that I I don't know if it's a it's a deliberate thing, but you know, you you you get this sense of you're the expert. you know, you're you're engaged and you know, you're the one put in front of the room and you've got, you know, 20, 50, 100 eyes on you. Um, you know, what are the answers, Chris?

And I think what's really interesting is that I take a really a very different approach where I step up in front of a room and I'm I'm virtually saying that no, I don't have the answers. You know, it's great you can refer to me as an expert, but you know, I'm just like you and I don't say that tongue and cheek. How rich is it to be in a room and external and I'm talking to say a local government about their customers but ironically their customers aren't even in the room. You know it almost feels like gossip right you're talking about people who aren't there.

It's like imagine if imagine if you came if if you you know came home one day or talking with mates and your mates all came together and were like Paul we we've all talked about you behind your back and we've had an intervention and we're just letting you know what we think you need you know and you'd be like you'd feel you cheated. You'd feel like you know what the hell. So, so I I find that, you know, the the way I approach it is is let's keep things open. They know their jobs best.

They know their customers best. Let's and I I say it openly. Let's figure it out. Let's let's let's, you know, let's start with a clean slate and let's figure out what And of course, I've got frameworks and I've got things that that help guide conversations, which I think's really important.

And that's what I'll hold. I'll I'll hold the space or I'll provide the space for them to then open up about about you know what's what matters to them or what matters to their customers get and and they most of the time it's like most leadership or coaching or man managing it's like most people know the answers or have the resources it's getting it out of them or putting them on the right direction or guide or you know and self-reflection is important too huge yeah we we reflect we get people reflecting um and they sort of almost learn without even without even knowing that moment as they're talking or answering a question. That's right. But I think that's what keeps, you know, keeps me grounded.

It's what keeps, you know, the room um you know, I I my whole job is is working in front of people and I, you know, it's one of those things that I'm I'm I haven't done standup comedy and maybe I will one day. Um give it a go. But I reckon this is what I believe. So I don't even know if this is true, but like surely comedian when they write jokes, if the audience doesn't laugh, then you scrap the joke, right?

And I sort of feel it's the same in my in my industry that you know um a lot of um really really intelligent people um speakers trainers they put together some really really cool curriculum like they they really you know think you know this is what you need and and sometimes we can be in front of an audience and we're delivering stuff that you don't get the laugh you don't get the the light bulb moments but you know that it's important but do they do they love it and you know sometimes I I almost feel that when I when I get up in front of a room it's almost like I'm I'm playing my best hits. I'm not I'm not playing the songs on the album that that aren't that that aren't popular. I'm playing my singles and I'm I'm I'm doing the lines that that that resonate because, you know, it's it's got to be something that that they're going to buy into. And well, you need them to buy in, right?

Especially if you're going to improve or change or and that doesn't mean that I'm that I'm going to be vanilla in my approach. I'm not going to say, you know, I'm not going to give hard truths. I'm not going to, you know, have conviction in in in what I what I'm talking about. and I'll make sure I can get a point across, but I'm not.

But but I've also got to make sure that it's it's what you know, it's what's resonating in the room. And I think that's yeah, so important. And I think um even myself over the years, as we talked about earlier, like hitting niches, really big on it, and I'm probably bigger on it now um than ever. Um when you hit a niche, obviously you can be more of a subject matter expert, but you obviously learn a lot.

You learn a lot about your client and and the you know, the experience. You said you're being work. I reckon you were touching on local government stuff even when I was in your office. I reckon even you had a mindset for I I think.

Yeah. Yeah. And I and I've done work for local government the last 10 years. It's been it's been really um interesting but it's just more now about you know wow I just I just this is something that I'm really I mean it lights me up too and I look every client does light me up and it's true.

I know everyone will say, you know, oh yeah, I'm really excited to be here and I genuinely am anytime I get in front of an audience cuz that's what makes the day that's what makes the day different. But yeah, it's really cool when you can find an industry that it's good that you grabbed hold of it and done that. And what I do remember a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to Chris and um and you had a really really hard year. That was 20.

That was 25, wasn't it? Yeah. So it was 25 last year and obviously then uh personally with your father and that, but you were like I was doing the house. I was watching plaster dry or render and then the phone just didn't go as much.

So the thing but he also talked about once again self-reflection holding a mirror up. It was like my energy probably wasn't there either and all this stuff right and you just thought it was going to kick off and maybe you needed that time and I said to you at the I remember saying to you at the time I reckon that is going to be your biggest year but it's not about the income or the rev or the client that year. It's like you obviously done a lot of thinking. You done the house.

It kicked your ass a bit. Not as much revenue coming in, probably spent savings, then you had the personal stuff with your dad. That that whole year, right? But I think you come in at 26 and it kicked your springboarded and it all Yeah.

Well, it's a different type of investment, right? Um you're investing I think this is right. I mean, instead of investing in the business, you're investing in your family. You're investing in your house.

You're investing, you know, hopefully in the value of your property. you're investing in in even reflection, you know, losing a parent and being a parent myself, it's it's you you're you're just investing in other areas and and you know, effectively, you're right. If you invest in other areas, then you're not 100% present in the business. And I like how you said that.

I'm I'm happy to admit this. I and and and I and I I want to get it out live because I I remember it was it was May and we had this wall that was was rendered and it was right you know how Perth we get some glorious May days but then eventually they're colder the sun's not there as much and then the rain comes and right at the end of this this warm couple of weeks we had this this massive wall rendered and it just wasn't getting any sun and you're looking at the forecast and to to you know there was I think you had to do this thing called reverse tanking first and then he rendered it and then it had to be you know primed and then it had to be texture coated all within you know this this this twoe period and you know and for the first time ever like this plaster is doing the work and I'm like are you sure you can do this like I've sort of it's like I've doubted doubted him like are you sure you can render in this conditions and he's like well yeah you can but you want to make sure it drops and I'm watching the the bomb the bureau app and I remember this it was like you know he said you know he'll come back in a few days And we had no work on in the backyard at all. And I remember I was at home for like not even checking emails Wednesday. Thursday, Friday.

Yeah. I checked emails and Saturday I remember like like I lost a good couple of days. Yep. And I mean when I say lost like not even productive in other areas.

I was I was effectively just monitoring this wall in the backyard. If that's not procrastination, I I don't know what is. But but yeah, I was I was you know they say things are as boring as watching paint dry. I I literally was watching render dry um and I couldn't I couldn't get it out of my mind until I was happy that the render and I can still go through my phone now and you can see you know I'm taking photos of like looking at the coloration of it like you know every you know couple of hours actually dry that was yeah that was on that was on my what year did you buy the house 20 you came you came around I remember just to see just before we we moved in as we moved in just before Christmas 2019 oh remember pops over it was like a couple of days you we came from the office you backer Yeah, I remember that.

So that's the reason I asked. So it was 2019. I remember going there. What have you done since?

2019 we would we were like, "Oh, here's our grand plan." And it was literally December 2019 um that we moved in. It was 2 days before Christmas. And I remember um we're about 20 weeks, you know, pregnant with with our first child. Halfway through it was perfect.

We moved in and we sort of had that vision. And we sort of thought, you know, maybe maybe, you know, we'll have the baby, we, you know, we'll all get back to work, you know, and yeah, maybe maybe 2021, maybe even 2022, we'll we'll do the backyard and then a month later co starts, you know, like as in the virus started and then by March 2020, you know, there were there were lockdowns and stuff like that. And then prices have just gone, you know, you know, astronomical. And it was one of those things that, you know, all good intentions that we were going to do this this this renovation and extension and all of that, but you know, here we are 6 years later and uh we've only just done one little little part.

You know, it teaches patience and and it's been fine. And and as I said, we it was one of those things that, you know, one kid not an issue. You know, even two kids, not an issue. We had a little grass patch out the front.

You know, it was a bit hard. You couldn't leave them unsupervised. Even three kids, like a baby, not an issue. But then when once that third kid starts running around and the eldest is, you know, fully, you know, into playing soccer, kicking the footy, you know, that sort of play, that sort of stuff, and toys in the toy room becomes less appealing, you know, we had to do it.

It was like a, you know, and we were ready, but but we sort of been putting it off, but we had to do it. And, you know, that's why that investment was just so important. What's next for the house? Well, we still got to extend.

We've got two of the kids sharing a room, so um which I think is great. Um, you know, it's I'm sure I'm sure, you know, in years time we'll look back at it. They they bonded every night and every morning. I think bedtime's still a disaster.

Mornings are still a disaster if one wakes up before the other. Especially boys. But especially boys. Yeah.

But um you know, we do need to get that extra bit of room. Y um we're actually living I think you knew this. We're actually living in a house that my great aunt um owned and we bought we bought it off off family. And you know the funny thing is is that my great aunt didn't have any kids.

And I know when I talk to my mom a lot about this that, you know, she'd be really proud because, you know, right now the the the energy in the house, the the the the love, the even shouting, the joy, it's there, you know, and and it's, you know, it's a it's we we need to expand. We need to get it a little bit bigger. But, you know, it's it's a house full of, you know, it's chaos, but it's, you know, it's it's typical European as well. And Yeah.

So, are you in the office still? I am. You are. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. a small a small space, you know, like I had that one room, you know, rented, you know, probably, you know, it's it's one of those things that, you know, you need a base somewhere to go. I don't have a a home office at home.

And then I'm, as I said, I'm easily distracted. So, uh, and now, you know, with with co, you know, my wife, you know, she'll work from home. Sorry, since co, you know, she now can work from home as well some days. So, you can't really be on top of each other.

So, I I I don't sort of when I say I don't need an office, but it's really nice to have a base. Same as here. uh as you know I was in the other office in Wembley and it's like you know less people and all that and there's so much space and cost you know you're talking between 80 and 100 grand and um got rid of it but straight away could have just kept working from home but straight away I'm like I need a base and like got this uh small room here now and um just to see what happens moving forward but um I think having a having a base or you know just a fresh setup for me actually was a big part of it. I I I realized um you know been in that office a while after I left where you were and um but having a base come back everything's set up no kids no wife no you know you zone in and for me I I don't need like I was think about how much quiet I do need like I the thing I love the most about my office is I can do anything anywhere cafes mobile phone whatever that's that's easy even on the couch at home there's no you run a business there's no no stress I guess in the and and everyone's got a similar thing in the in the intellectual property game where where I am in you know like I'm I'm constantly thinking about you know ideation of of content and you know I wrote a book as an example I want to write another yeah no no for sure and and I but you need a space where you can well I I need a space to to spread out and a space in in silence um I I've got a mate who um wrote a book and we were chatting about it actually and we actually had a coffee one day and he said oh this is where I wrote my book he wrote his book and we're at this loud cafe and I and I'm like you almost getting twitches.

I said to her, you know, how could you how could how could you write in this space? I I'm I'm I need I need peace. I need quiet. I need like serenity.

But it's so interesting. Everyone's different, you know? Some people really get in the zone in loud environments, busy environments with music, and I just need need quiet, you know. What what year did you release the book?

What when did you finish it? Let's touch on that. 2023. So that's I I think we just caught up just after the book um came out.

Well, no, it was it was actually 2023 to me was like a detox of all my content, all paper that I left like notepads of just scribble. And I think it was like a real it was a diet in two ways. I remember I lost a lot of weight at the time, but I also lost a lot of paper weight and I just got rid of everything cuz it was all in the book. And I actually, you know, in hindsight, no, not in hindsight, but the book, no it's not in hindsight cuz I always did this, but the book was written for me.

It actually, interestingly, wasn't written for anyone else. It was actually written for me to get my thoughts in one location on paper. That makes sense. You said to me the other day, you're like can wrote the book now.

I hate it. Right though you just your expression words um I remember you you were starting to work on that even when I was there still and um I remember you I remember bounce off chatting with you all that and like I don't think there's any like road map or rule book how you bring it together, right? No. And once again, it's like did did you know that you were writing it for you in the in the beginning or were you think you were writing it for others but then realized after?

Uh yes. And that's maybe why you so didn't all the advice I received Yeah. But I Yeah. No, all the advice I received was that you know you're not writing a series of Harry Potter.

You're you're writing um a book for for a commercial reason. Um and that's it. It's a it's a product that relates to what you do and there's got to be some sort of you know I guess commercial outcome from it. So I always had that advice but then yet when I was doing the writing I just I I didn't have that parallel like I did I didn't draw that together and and I so I knew that when I was writing it because So tell me why you said what you said the other day.

Well the the thing with intellectual property and it was funny reflecting on co is that um and she IP sounds so so fancy is that it's it becomes paralyzing. In fact, one of the best quotes, I don't even know who said it, so I've got to make sure I get my my attribution right, but someone said to me, "An artist never finishes a painting, they abandon it." That to me, so that's the first point around when they were painting the Mona Lisa, it wasn't it wasn't going I'm done with it like I'm I'm I've done my last stroke. It's that I don't need to do another stroke. Like every artist could put another Never heard that.

I know. Every artist could put just another paintbrush, another another swipe, another dot, another shading. You could you could always do more and they don't finish it. The painting is never done.

They just abandon it. They're sort of almost walking away from it and there's no right answer. You like that on at the end where Yeah. Well, that's how I got into almost the writing because especially during co um and I think this is a good thing.

A lot of companies out there were doing a lot of content around, you know, like you you can learn from home self-pay. And I remember there were times that, you know, we had this this this our first baby and, you know, my my wife would get up at, you know, 1:00 a.m. to to do a breastfeed or something like that. And I'm and I'm there just watching another webinar, another webinar.

Like I'm, you know, they're all pre-recorded and I'm just I'm just consuming consuming consuming, which is always cool, but then I got to a point where I needed to start creating. And the more stuff you had, you just needed to get it out of your out of your mind. So, I always knew that that it was a it was a real cool exercise to, you know, to strengthen my mind around just getting the content out. But I knew that, of course, commercially it does, you know, it it I stand by I love the book as in I stand by everything that's in it.

I don't um I I I would 100%, you know, I don't even bring a copy to have here, but I would I I I love it to that degree, but I know that that my next book is going to be a little bit more sharper. I was going to ask to the point um you know, you know, smaller and and really relevant to what I'm actually you know, delivering you know, every day. How long how long did the first book take? Well, you could you could argue that it took seven years, but but no, it took when I when I got to writing it, that's the thing.

It got to a point where I was like, you know, I've got to draw the line of, you know, I've got enough. I have enough. And no joke, I I I wrote um 100,000 words in in a 5day sitting. Three days.

Yeah. Three days and then I had a break and then two more days. So in 5 days I wrote 100,000 words and the book ended up being about 80,000 words. But it was easy to write and and another good bit of advice that I had around because of the 5 years prior putting a piece in.

Well, they say that there's no such thing as writer's block because if you have writer's block, you just don't know what you're talking about. So, you know, there was never there was never writer's block. And I think that was that was, you know, a good sign to say that I had enough to to put it out there. And now now that it's out there, it's it's kind of one of those things that what did you call it?

What was the book called? It's called All in Culture. All in Culture. Y and uh you know, lead your people uh to be of service.

And I think you know, you look at it and it's a it's a thick book and you know, it's not a book, you know, that you know, that someone can pick up and read really quickly. But I guess I stand by that because, you know, when it comes to service, like we've talked about, um, you you know, you got to go all in. And I, I think even the the weight factor of the book, like how thick it is. I mean, you could have a book that's thick.

It's full of full of crap, too. You know, it's not saying that thickness is is everything. But it speaks to its title, you know? I mean, allin culture.

Imagine if it was just like a tiny a tiny ebook. Like, is that really is that really allin? Um, this book's got everything. So, so what what are you thinking on the next one?

Next one is going to be um basically I think just a bit more practical, a bit more sharper, a bit more um you know, not defining what a lot of stuff is. Um you know, all of the the fat I guess you'd have in the book. um I'd probably remove a lot more of and I I've even looked at all in culture now and I've sort of highlighted you know some of the almost call them you know I mean I like to think that everything I everything that went into the book was was stuff I really liked but then now that I've done it I can take out more stuff that I reckon is like more goals that I can flesh out a little bit more so just a bit more tailored bit more targeted have you started working on that or brainstorming or brainstorming yeah that's seven years ago this is this is another well this is another Paul Coellen kick up the ass that I need Because I think what I admired about well what I admire about you is that and and I know at the time I mean everyone's got different challenges and I know that you weren't you having babies at that time but you know you were your your action is is really like impressive man and I I I always love how you and I would be chatting about an idea and we would we started in business at the same time. who are sitting there um in the office either yours or mine foundation chats too when learning right yeah and and you're like we're sort of not just together we're like yeah this is what we should do we we sort of agreed and then I'd go away and then 2 months later you've done what you said we should do or you know what you should do and uh and and you're you're a good amount of action so I think even from today it's it's always a great way to to to get on a couple of things resonate with me there um one is there's a lot of stuff I start and and don't don't finish either.

And I think everyone has that especially when you're a bit of a bulleted gate like I am or ADHD or whatever you want to call it. I don't know. I'm undiagnosed. But I and I was only talking about this yesterday.

This everyone's titled the ADHD thing and that right. So even just touch on that and I'm like I said it's a superpower if if that's what you want to say it is. I think uh there's a lot of things I sit on and try and perfect it. But I do I do think now reflecting back even to mine in your chats years ago, 10 years ago, uh, nine years ago is speed trumps perfection or speed to market and make something happen.

Like I moved in here a week and a half ago and um, you know, I might there was a there was a strategy moving in and I I come here one day and I just sign the next day and it was to get this up and running plus also kick back off and have a home base, right? And I probably I probably owe a fair bit to my ex-father-in-law. He he and you know him, he's creation as well, Ivan. I remember him teaching me and I always said he taught me how to pick the phone up.

Yeah. Make it happen basically. And I still do that to this day and it's actually my job in the business now or the businesses is problem solved. And um and action.

And I think even if it's not perfect, at least keep going, fail, pivot, try again, you know, just get it done. And um and reflecting back from our conversations, I like that you said that. Um people don't see the other stuff though that you don't get done or you you know you go you know you try try a lot of things but I think if you're moving the needle forward and I spoke to someone about this the other day it doesn't matter and and and if you take one path you never know what the other path was. That's why I'm always like just let's go make just don't sit on it too much.

And I think my problem isn't perfection. It's it's actually conviction. And I think you know for me why sometimes I take a long time something that I've learned about myself uh a lot is you know you you tend to be and and my mates would love to say that you know I'm I'm you know I I can talk underwater and I can because I talk for a living but I I've been a lot more reflective, a lot more analytical than I than I thought. And I think, you know, it's not self-doubt.

And I and I mean that. I'm not just saying that and going, "Oh, maybe I do have self-doubt." But it's it's it's conviction when you're putting I know you can put ideas out into the world and and ideas need to be shared. But I think for me, I've always felt that like like authenticity for me, I guess, is is to genuinely go like if I was, you know, if I was talking to a a potential customer, I would genuinely buy my own course. Like I I would buy my own program.

That's how much I believe in it. And I think that's always what's what's been the the thing for me. Not perfectionism, not self-doubt, but just making sure that my I was going to say self judgment cuz we all that holds all of us up most of the time. I think there's a level of that even even if you're very confident.

I think there's a level of that all the time. It's in our mind how we break through that and get like even the podcast. Three years I've been want to do it right. I'll be honest, it was probably worrying about clients, what they think and this and that.

And then also, you know, doing the podcast even though it's only a couple hours a week, people seeing you I get asked now, are you still doing the insurance thing? you know, I I have never been deeper in the insurance in 2 years than I am at the moment, right? But there's all that self, you know, this and that. I'm always and, you know, we go back, we talking about content and that earlier, um, and sharing and getting things done.

I think it's always us that hold it up like ourselves. Always every every time. And no one has to blame, especially when you're on your own. Well, that's when we passionate or really care like you just said, and I'll go back to authenticity in a sec.

I I would have said perfection for you because I've watched you do stuff and you're like you really like want the jigsaw puzzle to come together and I and maybe there's different levels of it. You know what is perfection? You know like what there's no rule book with anything that we do, right? But going back to that authenticity bit, I think it doesn't matter.

Everyone does things different and this is why I'm really comfortable now doing this is because I'm really genuine on it and I don't give a and I just and it's actually been a few things the last 6 to 12 months that's kicked and made me not give a as much. And the moment you get to that, and I mean that in a good way. The moment you get to that point, you can do things more. Does doesn't matter what it is.

You sitting there and like saying to yourself, authenticity, I'd buy my U program. It's pretty cool. And do you know that authenticity wavelength is like 10 times higher than the love wavelength. Authenticity is why people buy what why people engage.

Like authenticity is huge. The whole wavelength. Yeah. It's unreal.

And it's um and I notice it just even doing like reals or content and stuff. Even just being in here, you speaking up. Other people have had sit in this seat, me being authentic and letting walls down, vulnerability, accountability, they do. And I've had people say stuff on here that their whole like from, you know, committing suicide to all that stuff.

Dark thoughts and all the stuff that you wouldn't talk to anyone. We're sitting here on camera and 2 minutes in comes back to that piece. Authenticity. And if you believe in it and you care, care, care is a big piece.

like your program. Um I think that's all the difference than being smoking mirrors or you're trying to make it look good but you don't you know what I mean like more worried about way people judge. Um yeah and that's the thing when you when you're actually talking on stage in front of people you know if you you know if you don't get it yourself and there's been heaps of moments where I've been sort of in my in my head still stitching together some some content uh live and and you just you can feel that the energy you know isn't there. Um, but when you get it fully and get your own stuff fully and you know the message is and you you you've sort of almost not perfected it, but you you just you know your message.

Yeah. The the getting up and speaking part I I believe is is is quite easy. Yeah. It's um obviously probably the number one fear in the world is public speaking or close to right whatever.

I I don't know what the stats are, but I think it it's right up there. And I've only spoke in front of people a couple of times and actually last couple years I want to throw myself in the deep end, but obviously I probably wasn't ready, but um I'd like to work towards that. But it's a similar feeling now. Like even when we sat down earlier, it's why I don't do a formal formal because then you're starting to structure it, which is not what this is about.

This is about just there's no questions, nothing. Right now, the reason I can confirm there are no question. There's no everyone asked me the night before or text me most people you already knew this and it's like what are we going to talk about? I'm like, it doesn't matter.

Like that's I think I'm good at I can grab something. We can go back 5 years, come back and especially when I don't know the person actually. It's it's cuz I'm really like you don't know anything at all. Whereas we're lucky I mean you were at my wedding as well.

We we've known each other a lot. But you're even even through um your ex-wife's um mother uh is related to my godmother who's who is a cousin from Croatia as well. It's so like you know we we luckily we have spent a lot of time together over and you don't realize it until you get rekindle or catch back up. Exactly.

So I was just saying before this here is similar to go stand up like at the start it's a bit hey but once you're a minute in and you and you kind of you're in it and you got the feeling or you know your stuff like you're talking about jumping up on stage. You kind of can forget about all that because you're in it. It's like getting asked you go talk in front of people and you get asked something. It just breaks the ice straight away doesn't it?

And then you yeah like you how many how many gigs you done? Oh jeez. How many people you spoke in front of? And that's that's almost a blur now.

But um you get sharper every day when you when you're doing that. So you So what would be your number one thing when you go speak in front of people? Number one thing as in for to help someone else out there about public speaking getting up besides knowing your stuff. Well that's that's pretty pretty major.

When you're nervous what do you what do you do? What's what's your thing if you are a bit nervous or it's a new group or do you know I I don't know if it's I find that the one thing that um I think helps with nerves look there's there's so many things you can then and there's so many people that do amazing work in in helping people calm and stuff like that. But when you speak in or use an an analogy or a metaphor, what I've noticed is your whole demeanor changes. So like I'm just trying to think of an example.

If I was to say something like, um, going to work. Yeah, here's one. Go to going to work every day, whether you've had a good day or a bad day, uh, is is like the sun. The sun comes, you know, the sun's the sun comes up and then it starts again the next day.

Because you notice that when I say it's like the sun. See how I'm smiling? Like it's like it's because it an analogy is so it's it's like it's like it's so relatable. And there's a couple of things.

So it's so relatable that it it, you know, it just makes sense. But then because it's relatable and it's non it's not business, it's not work work. It's it's just an everyday thing. Your your demeanor just shifts.

Yeah. Say it's oh it's just like the sun or it's it's like you know or you know you can say things like you know sometimes you know um policies you know even this um you know you could say you know you're in insurance and you go and even now I'm just grinning. You're like you know reading a product disclosure statement is sometimes like deciphering those confusing parking signs. You know the ones that are like 3 P that way, 2 P that way, Monday to Saturday, Clearway, school hours, and you're looking at the sign and you're going, "Am I am I reading that right?" And and even then, like a PDS for insurance is just as confusing as as one of those parking signs.

We all know how confusing parking signs can be. We've all been in that situation where we're trying to decipher it and we're like, I don't know if I've got this right or am I seeing things? And it's so relatable. It just makes you just relax more when you say it.

That's a really good tip. That's what I like. using analogies or relating to something that everyone cuz if you're if you're talking about a topic or advice or something obviously and I think that's this is where people get worried that they're not going to know their stuff and it's probably when they public speak or speak in front of someone. I think that's that's it right that's why planning and knowing your is important is important.

The one thing I would say, this is just my this would be my advice, but I I don't know what other people would say about it, but I reckon the one thing that I've learned about analogies, um, is that seriously never quote TV or movies. I'll tell you why, right? Never do an analogy about TV or movies cuz I think back in the day, when I say back in the day, when when I was young, there was like seven, nine, and 10. That's it.

Like that's it. Now you've got like seven, mate. You've got and that's just free to wear 10 plus. You've got then you got like streaming services.

There are people out there that don't even have TVs. So firstly, do you do you have your aerial plugged in? Uh I I we uh Yeah, we do. Yeah.

No, we do have the aerial plugged in. Yeah. No, we do. Yeah.

And I and I don't mind a bit of free to air uh and watching some reruns and stuff like that, but but I'll give you the example, but the point is is that people out there don't watch, you know, the same shows every night. And even, you know, I watch a lot of shows with with my wife and some of the shows that only she would watch and I sit through them and it's just the the stuff that's out there is just huge. So my example was I remember once I was in front of a room. Yeah.

And I I made an analogy and I said something like, "Oh, it's it's kind of like Groundhog Day." And this guy puts his hand up. I puts his hand up at that point and I looked at him. He was I was so sorry. What's Groundhog Day?

And there's a lady in the front row and she I didn't answer. She looks at him and she was like, "Have you not seen the movie?" And this guy's like, "No." So the whole thing like Bill Bill Murray I think Bill Murray and then and then someone else jumps in. It's like oh it's not just a movie it's based on a real like the you know the the groundhog predicts winter or whole separate conversation separate conversation and I'm like so not only and and then I I look at other people and they're like like half grinning like you know when you're gritting to pretend to be nice and I actually asked in the room I was like whoa whoa just stop for a sec who here hasn't seen Groundhog Day and about three or four people put their hand up. Yeah.

So then I actually I was like I don't know how I got this idea. I was like, "Let's go further." I said, "Who?" And then she was like, "Oh my god, you haven't seen it, right?" And then I said, "Who here hasn't seen Mrs. Doubtfire?" And I reckon like three or four hands up and seen Mrs. Doubtfire, right?

Were you quoting him from No, no, no. I just just asked him. I was like, "Think about feel like the movies that are on TV all the time." I was like, "They play it like three, four times a year cuz it's a feelood movie." I said, "And here's one. What about Home Alone?

What about Home Alone?" And equally, a couple of people have never seen Home Alone. Yep. Now, and and I actually I I my my six-year-old, we actually let like I showed him, my wife and I showed him Home Alone just last Christmas, and I was like, "You've got to like teach your kid Home Alone." And it's just amazing. It's like you want to almost get not not judgy at all, but you're like, "How can you not?" And that's what I'm saying that the whole conversation turns from the analogy that's going to help you Yeah.

to debate. Yeah. To relate to a debate about how can you how can you not have seen Home Alone or Mrs. Doubtfire or Groundhog Day and and I think yeah, we're at this this turning point now, not just with um well, like with TV for sure, but these movies like that that are '90s movies, you know, like there's going to come a time where where people, you know, won't have won't have seen them.

You know, Titanic might be one. Um you know, but it's kind of like I don't know, you know, maybe like what The Sound of Music or The Wizard of Oz was one day, you know. So I always find that you know analogies with TV and movies are really are really difficult. What's the best Walt Disney one movie?

You can't fault The Lion King. You can't fault The Lion King. That's true. I um I actually the one that I remember so part of my my background of what really springboarded me out of the leisure industry is I actually went to a um uh an exec program at the Disney Institute.

Oh wow. I told you about that. It's like so Disney Institute. It's like a It's like a university based at Disney.

Where's that? Uh it was in Orlando, Florida. Yeah. Um I went there in 2014 and I did a like an executive, you know, week-long course.

But to answer your question about the movie is it was around the same time that they released that um Saving Mr. Banks movie which was Tom Hanks and it was the first time that actually they depicted Walt Disney in a in a film. Right. Anyway, but just just watching how Disney tell stories and and and how Disney operate and how you know you talk about smok and mirrors, all this smoke and mirrors there because putting on such a great show and I think you know that really you know when I saw how they delivered those programs it was next level and was it really that would have beened that's um that's a pretty cool experience.

sort of motivated me not not directly straight away but it but it motivated me um to to eventually you know in my mind I knew what I sort of wanted to do in in the industry at that time and I'd done five well that at that point it was like four years and I did another year full year after the program and then I was ready to kind of springboard out and and share share a message you know so Disney movies I reckon the Lion King that that one Lion King yeah I I always go back to Shrek Shrek No. Yeah. Is it? Yeah.

Is Disney in it? Maybe. Yeah, it probably is. I don't know.

I know that the whole Pixar thing's Disney now cuz I know Toy Story 5 is coming out. Someone just went and watched it Sunday, actually. I didn't know. Oh, you're coming.

Yeah, it's out. It's out. I can't wait. I might go with the kids in the July July holidays.

Um Yeah. So, it's it's an interesting thing how how that is how they operate. And and even interesting like around leaders. Um I if I don't you I don't like to sometimes sometimes quoting Walt Disney's it can sort of work to your disadvantage because you know Disney is such a perfect company.

I know and sorry they're not a perfect company but they are the poster child of perfection. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it can work to your disadvantage because you've got um you know you start talking to someone about Disney and people will go well straight away Disney's got all the budgets and they've got all the the fireworks and you know their their revenue is just just huge right?

How can a And they struggle a bit no longer. They they might have. Yeah. They've obviously but they've adapted.

They come back. They adapted pivoted. And I guess my what I want to say about the leader is that you know Walt Disney he died in December 60 1966. So he's coming up to a milestone anniversary this year 2026.

And the business you know effectively operates as if he was still alive today. His legacy is is is huge. Um which I think there's a lot to take out of that isn't there? There is.

That's huge. But but on that note, I try and I I don't I mean, you can use it as the poster child, but then I have to sort of quickly what I find um is is quickly get away from Disney because it it can be a bit paralyzing when you're a one-man yman shop or a a a small business or even a large business like a like a local government um you know that provides like a necessity of service and tying analogies to Disneyland not always help. Do you know much about this is left field? Do you know much about the whole and this was at high school I was taught this the whole Disney movies and obviously they'll fill out with McDonald's a lot further you know all the figurines happy meals and all that the whole hair like like an M there's a lot of like there and subtle things yeah subtle things even like stuff you don't see but if you slowed it down you would there's a big thing on it I only looked up a few probably 5 years ago 5 years ago again I can't remember how much down the rabbit hole I went but they reckon there's heaps in that whole marketing piece on I don't maybe you I don't know, I mean, I'm not a marketer, but one thing I will say, and this is going to be uh like some people would laugh at me for this, but some people might might think it's a pretty cool quirk.

I really like Get ready for it. I I really like Okay, I don't watch I'm very It's very rare that I watch a new movie. Yep. Or a new show.

I really love re-watching movies and reruns. So, you ask me, of course, well, how do you see a new movie? Well, of course, I see a new movie from time to time, but I love I'm the opposite. See?

Yeah. Yeah. And and my wife's the opposite. She doesn't once she's seen it, she doesn't see it again.

Unless it's a cartoon one or a Disney one. Oh yeah, those ones. But I find like for instance um I'm a huge fan of Seinfeld. Um I could rewatch those episodes over and over again.

Um I've rewatched like some of the early seasons of the Simpsons. Um there are movies that I I watch um you know a couple of times and I don't see not not like a couple of times like obsessively watch it like every day, but then you know I might be flicking through Netflix. I might see, you know, like The Born Identity and I'll be like, "Yeah, I'll watch that again." And I've seen it probably 50 times. If you ask me to put something on, I won't put the same movie on.

But if I But if I walk in on something, I'll probably watch it and you get into it. But well, what I what I reckon though is is that the whole thing is the script doesn't change, but your perspectives do. And I think that's what you actually learn when you watch them again. What I've recently I've been challenging myself against is when you rewatch something, you actually take so much more out of it.

Like the second time round is like and I think we're a bit different when we watch movies these days with our phones you know whatever else and I use it to wind down a lot of the time like I'll be laying there so I'm not thinking of work or something like that but um I notice when you go rewatch something and I don't like it's all time for me I think I'm wasting time by re-watching the same thing but when you do and you get into it and usually it's accidental for me like it'll be on TV content rewatch it and you're like realize that last time and you do you you bang on perspective you pick up different things um and your life changes and then you take different things out of it or you notice things that that weren't there the first time. Yeah. It's just just amazing. I that's what I love.

And I'm not saying I I do that do it with that intent. I just enjoy it sometimes. And sometimes, you know, it's funny if you see a good movie, you'll never see a like if you know a good movie, you'll never watch a bad one. And I know that, you know, I say to my wife, you know, how's this movie going?

Or how's this show going? She's like, oh, I got bored. I just turned it off and you know, it didn't hit the mark. And and you know, of course, you know, if you're just watching any stuff on TV, of course you're going to come across stuff you don't like.

But, you know, she teaches me a lot with that. Like, I'll I'll I'll she'll say, "Let's watch a new show." And I'll be like, "I'm a bit skeptical about this," you know, and we do and we, you know, before I ch I'm going to change subject to in a sec, but before I do, the one I do go back and watch on purpose is Suits, the series. Love it. And I've never watched it.

No. And I'm going to be I've never watched Suits. I've never watched Game of Thrones. I'm going to tell your wife.

Yeah. Yeah. I've never watched Game of Thrones. That's never been my thing.

Um, but Suits? Yeah. Big time. I've watched it like probably three times.

What do you I just It's probably the business, the the challenge, the the banter is really good. Um, you know, they're lawyers and you it's it's always um what do you call it? There's always someone out there to get you like in business and stuff like that. And then it's like it's the strategy and the response and like it's just cool.

I Yeah. I don't know. You have to watch it. It's the whole business side of things.

I think I just like watching it. Sometimes people I don't know if it's the right the best example but people go oh drama is just it's a TV show it's not real but then there's got to be elements of things and I getting humbled getting challenged losing like that's what I take out I always like reflect on my my daily stuff did did I see something I think it was the crown no it was the crown but I but I don't know who said it one of the princes maybe Harry I don't know they said someone asked him you know what did you think about the crown and I think the response was you know it's a TV show but it's also true like like it's also true and it really it's got to be it's got to be along the lines and some stuff is like dramatic license you know to to get a point across but like that's the thing like maybe maybe the conversation didn't happen but the guts of the conversation did you know it's like on um here's a real you know cheesy one but it's like on you know home and away or neighbors where you know a pregnancy lasts 3 weeks. 3 months, you know, like the one minute they're they're they're pregnant and the next minute they're, you know, they're delivering the baby. You look at that and you're going like surely that but it's it's it's to get a point across message is is being is being delivered.

That's that's what I find funny about poetic license. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to change it up here cuz um I can tell I'm a bit rusty on this and haven't filmed for about eight weeks. But the ridge you asked me about the journey and why um risk, roadblocks and resilience is actually the three things that I've for the 3 years and out of conversations with people every day like me and you would have had back 10 years ago and all that it's the roadblocks we hit and the risk we take and the resilience we get built right so obviously your probably biggest challenge which I think will be a big win for you was probably last year and um and now you reflect on it especially bouncing off someone else whether it's me or whatever you know you get a different perspective But let's I'm going to want to tape back a fair bit. Where were you born?

I was born around the corner from here. Subako where we King Edward. Oh, King Edward. Yeah.

King Edward. Um I was born uh just under 6 weeks early prematurely. Um and look at look at my What year was that? 88.

88. Yep. So bsentennial uh baby they refer to us as. We got uh I think $50 from the government.

Uh they got put in an account. We got a little Actually, I've heard that. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh so so 1988. So I'll be uh Where were you guys living then? We actually lived in um a flat uh in I think it was technically Osborne Park, but just around near Bellkata. Um where my You don't hear that word much anymore, flat, do you?

Flat. Yeah, that's it. The flats are still there. Always drive past.

Um they're still there. Um and what was mom and dad doing at the time? So uh mom obviously Matt leave, but both of my parents, they're actually teachers. They they trained as school bikers.

um they told me this was there was a period where teachers couldn't get the public service and became public servants. So dad at the time was working um for the department of immigration and mom obviously when she didn't have me working for the the tax office. So both of them were working for for the public service. Yeah.

Yeah. So, um, so grow growing up. So, how long did you stay there for in that flat? Uh, parents already had a block in Karine.

They had already um I said that that's where they were going to build. So, I think I was two about two when we moved in to the to the family home in in Karine and and my mom's now still there. Oh, that's still the family home. Yeah.

Um and then we've ended up moving back sort of you know where the where my my grandparents were and they lived in in Sterling which was uh all back in the day market gardens and um yeah we we bought a a house off family there and you know yeah we spent obviously we didn't live in that house but but grew up you know on weekends and and stuff like that a lot of memories and a lot of photos you know we we painted the house but you can see you know the existing you know arches in it and you know you got family photos from you know 40 years ago same in that same house. So, um, so grew up in Korean. And so, with your dad, with your dad, cuz didn't your dad go on his on his own? He did.

Yeah. So, talk to me about that. So, he was at the department of, um, immigration when you were born. Yep.

Couple years later, you moved into where your family home is now. And then, how long did your dad stay there? Because obviously similar industry. Yeah, he started a business at a really well, I think, at a really good time.

um in 1996 um and it was at a time where there was a lot of uh booming immigration, a lot of um uh oil and gas projects, a lot of mining stuff if you think about it. Um and because he'd worked in the department for so long uh from I think 19 about 16 years from about 198081 through to 1996 you know um he he had built a lot of relationships and to be honest I think my dad uh well he he said this to me many times that his biggest frustration was was a lot of the the politics in the public service you know you know he believed there was sort of you know sometimes a lot of maybe sometimes nepotism in in in getting promotions and getting jobs and you know he he went for a lot and and you know got knocked back um a lot of the Um, and you he took this major risk and I think that was that was an interesting point just about taking risks and set up a So, how old were you then when that happened? Uh, eight. You would have been eight.

So, so it's it's a really good point, right? Cuz you don't realize it at the time when you're eight, but you probably learn a lot from that. Obviously, you're talking about it now. you know, the the jump your dad took.

But in his world, the, you know, the the roadblock and the and the risk he took probably built him his resilience in his business because probably wasn't um, you know, couldn't get the promotion or, you know, whatever went on. So, and probably wasn't happy and then it pushed him and he's like, could I go go out on my own? Yeah, exactly. And uh, and back then I reckon it's a bigger risk than what it would be today to take that jump.

Totally. Honestly, like it was more survival mode back then. white picket fence, you know, um safety net a lot. Did he do a lot of hours there in the department or when he jumped?

He Well, he did from what I heard and I remember when we were talking after he passed away, we were we were hearing a lot more about, you know, how he worked and he always picked up a bit of overtime and flex days and stuff like that to help the family. But I know when he started the business, you know, I mean, God knows, you know, I guess what the books looked like. I can't say that. But what I can say is that he was busy.

And you know there were times that you know he was up um until and probably impacted his health to a degree. In fact the actual advice that he gave me when I started my job was actually interestingly he had a colleague who did the same thing as him uh from the department and uh I think he had he ended up having a heart attack a year or so later and passed away after he started his own business. And I know my old man um you know was was doing a lot of late nights um you know a lot of weekend work and mom was helping him out a lot as well. Of course, there was that there was that period of time where, you know, us kids just needed to, you know, be quiet and maybe watch TV.

I think they got a Foxtail subscription and like go watch some Fox, you know. Um, so, you know, I think it did take a toll on his health anyway, but he was busy. Um, and and I guess that's a good thing, you know. Um, as in what I mean is there was, you know, he was providing, but there were there were always clients.

Um, you know, and so, you know, you think about us being, you know, like I just moved in here. You just set up all the tech or, you know, whatever. Back then, no internet, you know, phone, like normal phone, no mo nos back in the day. Um, and you think how they got around and done business.

Now, we stay back and, you know, do the long hours and you probably reflect on this a lot. You like imagine imagine how much slower it would have been to get things done and you don't realize it now. We take it for granted like where we're at. But there's a lot of learnings from that old school old school world, right?

and probably imagine the risks that would have he say around about he he got um a fairly young diagnosed with Parkinson's disease so you know being a and it was a progressive and a very slow progressive illness for him you know had him for 20 years so it's really hard for us to even you know mom to pinpoint the day he finished work but he definitely kept going and then started to wind down. Yep. and seeing. So I reckon and and that's the thing you know he he probably you know he was old when he started business and he was you know young in comparison when he retired but I reckon he was in business for probably say around 15 years all the same business but I reckon yeah the same business but I reckon 10 of those years were before he got diagnosed 96 to about 06 and then he was yeah diagnosed in 06 and I reckon he probably did another oh maybe another four five years you know before he he said you know that that was it.

What was your biggest taken? Probably learning off your dad or being a role model. Gee, in in Well, I guess in he's done 15 years. Yeah, like taking risks.

I think even though he said to me, are you sure you want to start a business? Um, you know, and and I think a lot of the time as well, you know, that that sort of family a bit of that old tradition was like, you know, you know, don't start a business, just find a find a wife and girlfriend and get married and and start a family because that's important. and and it was but at the time but at the time I sort of jumped out prematurely. No, I didn't jump out prematurely.

I I think he taught me that you've got to take risk and and and be decisive in that. So that's that's 100% you know I can say it without even thinking about that. But I think well firstly I think we've got to realize that all work if it's a labor of love and I I as I said to you at the start when we started chatting this morning man I said you know we've got to it's a it's it's a message that I want to get out there and I think that takes time but then we know it's a long-term game or I know it's a long-term game so maybe a bit different from you know starting a business or a franchise and then selling it for a profit. This is something that I can see myself doing for a long time.

So, I'm probably grateful for starting. When I say so young, not so young because I don't think it's about the age, but so I started at the time where I was most motivated. Like I was never dissatisfied with my my job. In fact, I remember I gave I gave like 10 weeks notice of of leaving.

Like I I gave a long time, a couple of months because I was never, you know, I just was like, I really want to do this business. Y and I'm I'm I'm sort of itching and bursting at the seams to want to do it. So, you know, I'm glad I started then because I've obviously learned a lot over. So, I I think and I learned this off my father-in-law as well.

He didn't start a business till kind of got pushed out I think with a redundancy or something and they want him to move him and Helena and um he started his own but he was at 45 and I've I think it was 45 and I've always said I'm still not even 45 yet and I started and I think we're lucky like what how old was your dad when he started? He obviously pushed out from the department. He was like 47. There you go.

like how how lucky are we that we can take that risk now cuz it's not so much the white picket fence anymore. We're pretty lucky these days. I think it's more convenience than survival these days. And I'm glad too cuz bearing in mind now that's a that's a good point that you know at the time I didn't have um which I guess it's you know survival mode happens if you need to survive but I didn't have um kids um you know I I was able to be able to take a few more days.

You always make it work though. Hey you make it work. This is one thing you learn. Yeah you can but I could do it in on my terms.

Yeah, of course. You know, and and I think you timed it well. But then now that's what I what I said I think I said to you earlier like you now can not like now I know that I can take well no sorry I'm not saying I can take it easy cuz even more so you've got to keep going because you've got now cost of living's hard and kids cost a lot of money but big chunk of pride in there too. So you got to keep going.

Yeah. But you got to but you've got then that's well yeah definitely pride but you've got to you can also take time for family as well. And I think you know you know my job is really cool. It's like it can be the best the most flexible job when it can but then the most inflexible job when it can't.

And that's one of those things that you know there's no driven client engages you and it's it's even you know like a like a great example is you know every session will always start at 9:00 a.m. which means I I will always be there at 7:30. And and why I say that is it's a half an hour to set up, half an hour to literally sit in silence and chill. Like I'll go through re like reels and and memes on Facebook just for a laugh.

Like just chill for half an hour and then half an hour of like welcoming people when they're coming in, chatting, warming the room, warming the room up, people coming in. That's 90 minutes. So then, so then so let's just work back 9:00 starts, 7:30 arrival. Everything in Perth, it's a half an hour away, but let's say 45 minutes.

So that means a 7:00 departure from home, which means which means, you know, 6:00 wake up for for coffee and and getting ready. Um, which means and the kids are still in bed by 600. I don't help out at all on those days. Y anything.

Yep. So you just focus locked in. Yeah. And and and I have and and Brianna has to do everything her herself and on those mornings.

And it's one of those things that like But then again, you get the best benefit of if I didn't have a program on, I could drop off. I could do, you know, school pickup. You know, you've got it. So, it's one of those things that it's so flexible when it can be, but then it's so inflexible when it when it can't be.

The you know, something I always think about and um is this whole online like teams, video calls, all that. I just I was thinking about it cuz you obviously they're in person and I was going to ask you like do you do much online with anyone? No. And why I haven't is I think and by the way there there are many people in Perth that do but I think where we were l So where we were lucky um is and I think let's be honest here let's let's kind of be a bit raw with what happened co hit y um co hit just as well that was March um our eldest looker was born in May just as those restrictions were easing for everybody in my in my position co effectively decimated our our income effectively.

Yeah. and we uh started I I was on the the JobKeeper sort of subsidy that the that the the government had at the time. I I joke about this because I almost called JobKeeper like my paid paternity leave because there were periods where we couldn't work. So I was home with the new baby.

It was very very special. Very very unbelievable. But then as most people know with Perth come July we're talking by the way a couple of months here Joan but but come July then we were the lucky state. So because we had L car early like at the start of um uh co I didn't like pivot and go buying road mics and you know and online setups and and stuff like that.

I never went into that because I I took those moments to be at home with the family and then by the time you know Perth's restrictions had sort of finished. There was the odd teams thing cuz people still figuring out technology teams you know did happen but then before you knew it we we were back to back back into it in that year and it was good. It was ready to get out of the house too by the way. It was ready to you know after a couple of months off you just needed you just need to get back into it.

So, so you know, John Keeper went back into it and and I just never ended up doubling down on that. And I'm not saying, you know, some people say they even like it or they don't. I'm not saying that I I I like it or don't. I've just never needed to dabble in that.

And so talk so talk about where I was kind of going with this and it's good to get your perspective psychologically or mindset or whatever with clients. Go back probably 5 years and I'd be like, you got to have meetings with clients. You got to have me face to face, right? As much as you can.

It's actually and even clients probably wanted that and this probably come out of co the it sped things up right sped a lot of things up technology definitely now clients now want the teams meeting and it all comes back to time and travel like I meet with some clients but I can tell you now even bigger clients you would normally go and meet with sit at the round table go there and you do the normal thing I can tell you now I reckon it's shifted the mindset like I used to worry when I couldn't have a meeting and you're going to go hey can we get on teams now I think that's what's wanted I honly think that now cuz everything's about time, right? And people are so used to the whole team's video thing. And I'm not talking about really in your job. I'm just talking about meetings and engagement with clients, right?

Which I was talking about before. We probably dropped the ball. Well, I I did personally, but now I just I always think about this how it's shifted with a client now. And I think they more want the teams than they do in the in person.

Unless you're going for a lunch or something. Yeah. But honestly, I used to worry about that like trying not to do a teams. I think it's flipped because everyone's so used to it and it's all time.

We're all fastpaced, right? Most go to most logistics, mining, all that. And a lot of the the invites the the calendar invites actually have just a permanent teams link anyway. Y so we can get on.

So it's not as you know like being a bit probably old school and and people skills and that like I used to love being in person and I used to think that's what was wanted and it probably was. I just think it's done a big 180. Do you know actually what I find on that note just with meetings? So let's say not I was thinking about training delivery or or workshops but meetings.

I find that teams meetings are really cuz in a company cuz you know like you we we we work for companies where where they're our clients. Um when you're in one room like they're there in their office whether you meet them in person or not I don't think makes a difference but I think it it well no I mean it it does but it always does but but they're there. I think for us it becomes really convenient when we're busy because for instance like someone might say like I love to do face to face and if I'm free I'll go in there but what if and this is where people get busy they go they go oh jeez I you know I can't do what day can you do next week? No I can't do any days next week.

What about the following week? I can but I'm going to be in this suburb and I can't get to that suburb you know until that time and it doesn't work. So they just say look let's just jump on a team's call. Yep.

And then you can do it next week. you can do you can do it like tomorrow or or now or or you know you can do it's all about travel right because I'm traveling and that's I think the key thing like it's really convenient when you want to when you when you can do that I think sometimes that's I guess a key message in that is that in in business I'm sure this is not new but momentum is so so powerful like if you can't lock in a meeting or you're constantly trying to lock in a meeting I find that that's the biggest alarm bells for for me when I think about all of the the work that either didn't eventuate or has never got off the ground, it's because we probably never got pinned down for a for a chat. Yeah. Yep.

So I and there's actually a lot go back to authenticity and and relating to people on a teams, right? There's obviously a lot of work done around that now, especially the last few years after co and I don't know how much more people get on that stuff, but it's the most right and I was watching this um diary of a CEO, so Steve Barl Vanessa's on Vanessa someone I follow her now. She's unreal with people, skills, and communication. And she was um she was talking about like Yeah, it was her.

She was talking about like the background, like don't do a blur or don't do a background cuz it's distracting. When you get on there, instead of going how's your day or how's the weather, it's like she'll go on there prepped with a question. And she's got these two or three questions and they're really, really, really good. And it's like and everyone knows cuz you know, you get on regular teams and there might be five people on there and it kind of breaks breaks the ice and it just changes the whole meeting.

And there's a lot of smarts around that now because some people get on there and it's just very transactional or you know don't you're trying to get like this face to face but you're on a computer. It's harder to it's harder to and she made some really good points and it's funny how much we worry about that stuff now than you know meeting up or you know what I mean. Totally. Yeah.

But I do find that relationships when you're in person though does never beat it. People say to me, "How long do we need to meet?" And I generally find that in a in like a conversation where we're trying to really find out if we're the right fit for each other, I honestly find that 90 minutes is a sweet spot. Um, and what I mean by that is is like an hour goes very quickly. Take out, you know, a bit of the pleasantries here and there, you know, and whatever.

And it might take a while to frame not not icebreak, but frame the guts of the conversation. And then if you're on a roll, you you don't want to sort of wind up. So look, I can keep a meeting to 30 minutes. if you gave me 30 minutes, you know, 15, we could do it or an hour, but I think 90 minutes is a good amount of time, you know, even like in a workshop, you know, you start at 9:00, have morning tea at 10:30.

It's a it's a good amount of time. Feels good. I I caught up with a client yesterday, a long-standing client actually, and the three directors, and I don't think I've ever had them at the table. We're laughing about it, like all separate, but um we went and had lunch and um and we were like, we talk all the time, and they've actually had a big week this week.

uh a lot of problem solving between me and Jackson, but we're like going to need to do this every couple of months. Like you you do start to lose it. It goes back to the whole teams and busy at work and like we spoke probably 10 times last week, but then just sitting there yesterday and just having a chat and trying not to talk shop at all. I think we did for like 5 minutes like no work how important that is just for the relationship piece like to talk you know they got a farm or you know whatever it is and just chat about that stuff or just life in general.

And I find that then followup calls if you're for inance if you're chasing something or if you're trying to get something across the line and you know I find that those follow-up calls are a lot easier if you've had a really cool and you know I I I actually even I I say it I refer to heaps of you know clients as as as mates you know and I mean that like like I even though we're not you know socially catching up all of the time I treat those calls as as as as a mate's phone call. It's a different relationship isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

and and especially problem solving like if something's really serious I'll be like let's catch up let's go and have breie and you'll shift things like when things are important but if there's a problem with a client or a major claim or anything like that you still even insurer jumped up and down with an insurer last week in the end we're having a face to even though we could do teams and I think we got one a month I'm like we need to see it at a round table even though it's not much different probably say the same stuff but being in person you just like you let your walls down you be vulnerable and then both of you will problem solve together instead of instead of tip for tat or blame or you know and I think um there's there's still a lot to um you know take out of that big time. Oh yeah, that's all about connection. And and and another one more thing I wouldn't mind asking you about is, you know, with all this tech and stuff and it's kind of similar actually, you know, I followed Gary Vee and all that stuff. Uh heaps many you follow you followed Gary Vee before anyone followed Gary V.

I want to make that clear. No, you didn't know he's popular, but I know you were really um I want to say an early adopter. Um we're talking years ago and I know he's been around for a while but the you know before he became a real name you Yeah. He's uh and met him a couple times.

Yeah. Yeah. Me actually met him got a photo with him. He's a legend and I I uh I still follow he shifted a lot and I like to learn a bit about that and I think I got a bit of similar traits as well just trying to be authentic and be yourself.

But you know what he talks about a lot is um and you know this this this could come back to the customer experience bit is walking in nature camping libraries all that stuff is going to be is boom bigger than ever and I think there I think you look up libraries in the US and that now and it's like it's nuts because we're so tech on teams you know all relatable to what we're just talking about and you know um we'll pay people to go for a walk basically that's that's what he reckons the future will be because it's it's this much part of your world you know what I mean now you go back to the customer or the client piece um what matters with them. I I think there'll be a a big crossover with that piece there and it comes back to meet in person because you hardly ever get to and it'll just it'll make a significant value and difference with a client or you know I don't know what your take is on that but I'm um so I've got a bit of a different different take and I got to be sort of I'm sort of going to sound a bit sort of middle of the range here in how I say it but but I think we have to realize that so with technology just I say as a consumer with technology it does some amazing things for for service. It does efficiency, convenience, you know, we don't even realize how well cuz we just we take it for granted. It's great.

That's the first thing. But we all we all know that technology um uh doesn't always work and that's where humans uh need to step in. There's a lot of arguments at the moment that humans are, you know, you know, we need humans for more the emotional side, for the connection side. And I don't disagree with that.

But what I do find and this is where my focus is at the moment is that if you if you take those two as as separate I don't think you're ever going to win because um for inance technology is becoming more human and technology has you know it does recognize emotions some of the AI stuff you know is is pretty good at at sort of reading and stuff right but then how bad is it when you've got a human being that doesn't respond and adapt as quickly as technology does that'll be the issue we're going through and we're not robots but but this is this is my point. I don't dwell on humans being purely for connection and slowing things down. I'm I'm really advocating for can humans learn to read the room better, not follow scripts. Yep.

Um problem solve, you know, with discretion because not everything with customers is set in a policy. It's not. Um there's always, you know, discretion and wiggle room in that gray areas. gray area and and when and I think what's more frustrating when so an app breaks down or a website breaks down of course it's frustrating what I think's more frustrating is when a human being can't jump in and fill the gap problem and fill the gap when there's I'm not saying conflict but when there's a problem or when there's when there's when when there's something that needs a bit of that human heart so it's not just about connection um I think it's about you know responsiveness and um and all of that and you kind of mean out of that like we're getting dumber or like using a calculator instead of working things out or or do you mean just under as a human keeping up with the tech and understanding and filling them?

Well, we'll put it this way. If if if we're used to uh technology doing things quickly for us, just say quickly, just give a generic example. Um then nothing's worse than a slow human. Can do you know something I think about all the time?

It's so relevant now. You're going up to the cash register. I call it cash register. Not a cash register.

Oh, there you go. There's one thing. But you go and you're going up to pay for something, right? And you go to put your app on and I I do it now cuz my comb bank card won't go on my wallet.

So I got to go into the com app and it's about four extra touches. Yeah, I'm impatient doing that myself and I think that I'm holding a lineup. But go back a step. What if I was going through my wallet getting a 58 getting change back and forth?

But I'm impatient like for 5 seconds cuz I got to three more touches on an app. I think about this all the time how it's changed, right? I'm I'm worried there you hold the line up. We're so fastpaced and like so we're so efficient.

You don't realize we're even faster than the machines on the checkouts. That's That's true. Wait for the machines sometime. Yeah, that's right.

Yep. Um and then I think about like how it's creating us to be more impatient because we're getting more efficient cuz we are until it doesn't work at all or there's no money on there or your PIN code or whatever. And u I think but what about when we used to sit here and take money out, you know what I mean? or even getting a card out.

Then you've lost the card and you around like and then now we're on an app and you just swipe and you actually you don't even have to open the app. You go like that and you know but just like that example of the self-service checkout. Um and it's it it look it sounds critical but you know we're all firstly it's quick. We're all moving through.

We're doing it because we want to get through quick. We're just you know we're driving it. We're driving it. And then of course there's going to be the whole unexpected item in the bagging area or you know whatever something that hasn't How impatient are we when that happens?

Yeah. And then you know you you look for help. Um and I always find that you know there's either a person if it's quiet um they're standing on that antipatic mat uh just like staring you know into the into the the distance and they'll they'll wander to you. um they you know it's it's it's not it's not done with um haste I guess but it's but there's no interaction there either and I think that's where it gets frustrating when you know you encounter the problem and then the the speed isn't matched by by that human so I'm not saying that that I mean human moments of connection I think are really powerful and that would be a moment of connection and a moment that you could actually do so much better but I think we can't forget about the responsiveness as well because because if humans start to slow service down that's actually going to be That's that's actually going to that's going to argue even more so for tech and I think that's what I what I've struggled with when I look at you know when I look at what's out there.

Um Cooh's woolly woollies I think we need some uh customer service training on these um what do they call them? What's their job? Quantis as well. I want to go back to my old stomping ground.

Well, what do them people call to the checkout? You know, like you said the the items out and like you're actually spot on. That's even more frustrating than your Apple or whatever not working and they're standing there and they're probably like 17. No, no, no throwing stones ad but like and there's no enthusiasm but like that's the role now.

Well, but it's are you going to take would you take your anger and more out on a machine or a human? And I think it's human. Yeah. It's not it's it's I think it's more frustration with yourself like these days you know there's not much um you would probably wouldn't throw stones at them but it's like can you hurry up?

Like sometimes you're on another checkout and you got to wait for them and then they got to come over and swipe to let you through to pay. But you also remember in those instances um how funny is this is that because this is where again I I I get really skeptical of sometimes the data that's out there is they'll say they'll say you know customers um complain more than ever. That's what they might say. You know there's a there's an argument that complaints are on the rise.

Um well no hang on a second. The role of the selfch checkckout person is to solve problems 100% of the time. think about. So, so their day is literally something's not scanning, something's not working, I need you to fix this.

Whereas in the past, they were the ones delivering the service and things were all generally running okay. Right? So, so the view that customers are complaining more I I'm not saying it's not true, but I'm saying but our roles when we're associating is fixing tech problems. So, when people are calling up the bank because the app doesn't work or they're calling up um Telstra because, you know, they can't something on their phone tech doesn't work, they're not they're complaining because they are wanting a problem solved because they're they're taking matters into their own hands.

And I think that's where I'm not saying customers complain more than ever. It's just that because tech is doing so much when it goes wrong, they need help more than ever. Y and it highlights the human straight away. You're actually spot on.

But, and no one would look at it like this. Yep. the humans holding it up, but how much more got done before there was an error? And and the and the other see I reckon that's the win.

It's like yeah, there's a lot of errors, but it's only because we're so used to being smooth, right? But really, like go back to the olden like the old way like how much how much more got done 99% of the time before the error, right? Compared to what was done before. So what I'm saying is yes, there's errors, but it's still way quicker than what I used to do.

You know what I mean? Like that's what I mean by like whole the swipe thing. It's like we're only impatient because we're so used to it and we take it for granted now. And and fundamentally I think no one can well I mean people some people don't use self-service people do but a lot of people do but I think we all have to face the fact that before self-service came out the biggest pain point and then the supermarkets researched this.

The biggest pain point of customers was the checkout. And you know, you ask every human being to be honest, what would they do when they finished their shopping? They would they would look at the checkouts and they would they would they would scan it and they would scan for which is the shortest queue, but then they'd also look at seriously what's the what's the um yeah the the items. So, oh, you know, this person has, you know, 2 months worth of supply of of cat food tins.

Um whereas this person's only got just a couple of big 30 pack Cokes. So, we would start profiling the queue, you'd profile the products, and then you'd profile the operator. Which operator looks slow? Which operator looks awkward?

I go straight the operator and and or even start with the operator, whatever. But those three things make up because what my point is you could have a big line but a fast operator or a small line but a lot of little little things to be scanned or a short line but a slow operator. So the pain point was always there. No one no one would ever just go blind into one checker.

They would always try and pick pick the best one and sometimes you pick the right one, sometimes you pick the wrong one. So that's why people that's why self-service is here. And then when self-service come out, we're all like, "Wow, you're making us do the work. You're saving wages." Yeah.

You know what we found? So, we won it. And then I was working for Quantis at the time and we we were the pilot port. This is one of my biggest learnings in in like service transformation.

We were the pilot port in 2010 uh in Australia where the self-service um backdrop and check-in was done. Um and historically the industry it was 2010 uh July um um and we trolled it first before it went out to the nation and um it was part of a huge you know transformation to how how we worked at airports and historically the airline industry has a lot of um a lot of long- serving people. It's it's an industry where people, you know, um they stay for a long time and I see well they go and come back even and I see people that I used to work with and they've done 20 years then and they're still there now and I think it's a great career place but people got very comfortable behind their counters and one of the things that we we went through in the training was to a lot of the the resistance to get to have a selfcheck in counter is that you would remove the security of of being behind a counter. Um, but you you've seen enough documentaries on TV that show you air rage and passengers going absolutely crazy at the check-in counter, you know, when they don't get the seat that they want.

But what they found is that when you remove the barrier and you're literally standing side by side with a customer, looking at the same screen, the same screen. Oh, wow. And the fact that no, there are no window seats available or no, there's only a seat at the back of the plane available, but we're looking at this together. There's no there there's there's no animosity.

I mean, yeah, you can be frustrated, but it's very different to if the screen's facing me, you're on the other side of the counter. There's no transparency there. It a lot. And then and the irony of that is is that in the same industry, think about this.

Yeah. At the back of the plane when the flight attendant comes past with the meals and they they say, you know, oh, can I have the chicken? And they say, no, we don't have any chicken left. It's just vegetarian.

Yeah. It's a shame. Of course, it's a shame. But but you're there side by side.

Imagine if every passenger had to queue up for their meal on board. Imagine that. You're queuing up down the aisle and then you get to the front of the queue and you go, "Can I have the chicken?" And they go, "No, the chicken's not available." And you go, "I've been standing in this queue, you know, whatever." And I want to speak to your manager behind the counter. Because it has that vibe to it.

So for years, the airline industry were side by side with passengers. Always great. So when when the airport started to get side by side with passengers, it just shows that that removing a physical barrier and being on the same side as someone, being with someone makes it so I I never really realize that cuz when you go and you can't bagrop and they got the pillars in the middle and the screen and you go, "Hey, can I help you out?" You're there side by side looking at the same screen. And I never realized and it does let walls down, doesn't it?

Like the, you know, maybe there maybe there is and they're not giving it to me or you know, whatever goes through your head at the time. And I know nowadays there's all these, you know, there's body cams and there's, you know, please respect staff and I reckon a lot's probably gone maybe worse than it was back in the day. But we're just talking about the that's that's your exceptions. I think the the bottom line is I don't think like it used to be.

No, but but I think people side by side the majority of the time I think is is good. Yeah. And I think like I've flown heaps um shitloads and I think it's I think it's all about your own planning really. Like once again go back to the tech thing.

check in, swipe, bag drop. Like most of the time, like once again, we get the when it doesn't work. Even getting bags off now is really good. I actually always say it instead of go on the complaint side, you know, be negative about it when you get off the plane if you've checked in.

I think it's unbelievable now. Like, yeah, it's frustrating when it takes to 5 10 minutes. But how long do you used to wait? That's right.

But but but even then, look, let's speaking of check in, let's look at another example. But but another example that's really that's almost the opposite is hotel check you know most of them haven't got with the times. So you're and even car rental checkin you're you know you're standing in the line to yeah you're just standing in the line and they're so you know that and they ask the same questions over and over again. Can I get your credit card?

Remember the credit card that you put online already. Um you know some are only just starting to shift. And the funny thing is is I know that, you know, there's rules of, you know, we can't hold credit cards and there's certain things we've got to do, but but then again, remember Amazon has my credit card. Uh you hit a button, hit one button.

Um and you done Domino's Pizza, pretty similar as well. Um so checking out's all right. Your comparison. Yeah.

But yeah, but your comparison is when you checking out's all right. Yeah. But checking in that's when you're most when you when you've been on a plane, when you've you know you're hungry, you want to rest, you want to relax, all of that. And it's an oldfashioned way.

So, it's another example that, you know, Mackers, we saw we talked about this at the start, right at the start. Knackers is really fast but inefficient if you don't get what you want because it's not you don't get the right product. Um, hotels are really slow but still inefficient because you reckon there's a better way to do things and I reckon it's all just a juggling act. Um, that's all it is.

And I suppose is it just trying to keep that human element there maybe like you know uh from a hospitality point a lot of these hotels like I stayed in one over Sunshine Coast the other week. They were really actually they had a sit down desk. Yeah. you know, break the wall, the barrier down now that I think about it, right?

And they were really good. They were pretty quick, but once again, like I'm on the way to the airport now and I'm like, check in, swipe, drop bag, right? Like, why isn't it like that with a hotel? Dave Cla actually put something up yesterday or the day before.

Something about he's like, why is it when when you're all organized and when your flights you had it all organized, but something about the hotel or the flight being not organized, the opposite when one's good, the other one's and it was to do with the same topic. I think checking in, checking out something like that and um I'll have to go back and have a look. Have a look. Yeah.

But um you're right. It's still old school, isn't it? Like check it out. I just walk out now.

I don't even your keys. I live in the room. But the thing is the mentality I I wonder is like are we and I don't know this. It's just a question.

But you know, do you need my credit card before I I get to the room? And what I mean by that is like how many towels am I going to steal within the first hour? as in get to come up to the room 10 minutes later here's a credit card thing just tap that like just you know I would love an industry where the conc is standing at the front door literally with all of the room keys obviously from checkout check-in time and it's like yep Chris here's your room key like just like flying through them and then they'll send someone else up there just being like yep tap your credit card here and sign here and it's almost like I always get the vibe that like they almost feel that I'm going start knocking off towels before I even before I even get into True. That's a different way.

But it's it's more just, you know, I'm not saying you got to trust your customers more, but why why don't you trust them more? You know, why why do you have to make sure that you know you've got that credit card? Well, it's on file and all that before they get to the room. We talk about old school, you know, the other bit you still sign a bit of paper.

Yeah. And if you book it through booking.com, which I book 99% through, right? Um sometimes I'm booking when I'm just coming in for landing. And um but you still got to sign and then they go, "Can you please give me your email?" Because the Booking.com one is a booking.com one probably to protect their face and know because they want all the coms.

And then when you go on the Booking.com app sometimes and you ask a question or what time you can check in, that message doesn't go back to hotels all the time or they don't check it. It's not their front message communication and you and you're like once again 2026 got all this stuff's really efficient. I've got to go there sometimes still sign and then they go can you write down your proper email because it went through booking.com. We don't have it.

and you're like, you're double handling. You're double handling. You're double handling. I I don't want to come here to sign in.

I got in 11 o'clock or, you know, yeah, whatever it is. But Booking.com are great, but again, it's a it's a friction point that, you know, tech, you know, that tech has, but then again, it's a human being that asks you for your real email address. And that's your frustration point there. It's not not the booking.com stuff.

So, we need to get on the hotels as well. Hotels, airlines. And it's funny going circle back to how we started. It's all of the industries that I don't work with.

Um, I think they still need it. Um, but it's just interesting that, you know, yeah, sometimes the appetite's not there, but we wouldn't have looked at that problem when it was really old school, but you start now. It's these little bits. It's like what I was saying about lining up and paying for something and your app doesn't work and you and you're frustrated.

It's like now we look at the really 1enters on on friction points. We all we all compare um we don't compare. We're not comparing companies that are similar. Again, we're not comparing cafe to cafe airlines.

We're comparing Amazon to the Hilton. We're comparing, you know, Domino's Pizza to um to Uber. Um that's what we're comparing, mate. Another one.

Domino's. Go and book on Uber. Domino's Wembley because I do for the kids. Uber Eats.

Uber Eats. They don't get tracked. So, how how how imagine we take this for granted. So, you can't see the car get delivering because it's a Domino's car because Domino's want to use their driver still old school.

So you book it on Uber Eats, order goes through. It's got a different message up. If you want, call the store. Now I called the store the other day and m he was ages.

I live 4 minutes from the Domino's, right? But you can't track it. I rang there twice and then I even gave him I actually gave him I'm like, you're Domino's and you're the phone call was real crackly. It's like it must be over.

I don't know. I'm like, you're Domino's, man. And you there's not even a quality phone call here and I can't track and you're Domino's. Yeah.

Yeah, like it doesn't add up all that down. Yeah, it happens every time. Every time I order, I forget that doesn't track. An example of a third party like Uber Eats, you know, Booking.com, third parties and they want to use their own driver instead of an Uber one.

So, but they want the ordering service that that bit of it, but they don't want all of it like Domino's. I don't know if all do it or it's a franchise own bit or I don't know either, but I can see I can see why they would they would do it that way. I can see Yeah. what what they're thinking is, but cuz I know when they're coming, I go down the apartment, I can I can time it, right?

Well, Paul, it it goes back to emotion, man. You know, the thing when people are hungry or your kids are hungry, there's nothing more enjoyable than watching the delivery driver take take the nothing more enjoyable than that because you're hungry. I I think that that's part of not the theatrics of it, but that's part of um you know, even waiting for an Uber. It's like a it's like it's almost like it's the world's first live example of where you are in the queue effectively.

Yeah. Um it's really cool. Even that whole pizza tracker that Domino's had, you know, it's in the oven, it's leaving the store, they take a photo of it. You know, all of those things are are designed to show you where you're progressing in in the queue.

Whereas other places when you call up, you don't know how long you're going to be. They'll say you're 15th in the queue or whatever, but you don't you don't even know once you've ordered something or once you've requested something where that where that is. You know, I'm sure, you know, you could go to the go to a lawyer and say, you know, how's that affidavit that you're drafting? And they'll say, oh, I can't tell you where that is.

is I'll let you know Friday or even even you know even in local government you know planning I know they can say they sort of can say what's happening but where specifically is my planning application well it's it's it's it's there but where where dominoes for $5 you know exactly where your pizza physically is physically and I think you know a $2,000 planning application compared to a $5 pizza doesn't sound fair but we just do it we're humans we just compare and and I think this without going into AI it's time for another chat um chat for another time. Um that whole um this whole AI and approving I think there was actual talk about approving applications with like with the locals. Yeah. Say you're sterling or whatever and um like how long this stuff takes and it should be done in you could do it in 5 minutes.

Could you do it faster? Yeah. You know pinpoint pick out the gaps whatever not right go back. You know what I mean?

And like we got insurance with applications on home indemnity and stuff like that. Like all this stuff can be sped up usually cuz they're big beasts like and change management and tech and all that. Actually it's a good point. I well you do as you know my my insurance um or your team does and and I I I know that every year the the the response is always and it's never an issue but the response is always oh we're just waiting on on the insurer you know we're just waiting on them to to come back to us which I think is is is you know yeah it's just interesting how things are taking longer and you know are we able to things things that didn't used to take long things that used to take long are not taking as long anymore and maybe that's going to continue to change you know things will just go quicker so so I went back earlier, I was going to your where you were born and that.

So, I just want to skip back over this to where you got today. So, um you were two, your dad had the business, he done that for about 10 years before, you know, he um fell ill. So, you would have been How old would you have been then? Well, he he got sick literally when I graduated from school.

So, you were eight when he started the business. Yeah. And then 10 years later, 18. Yeah, that makes sense.

When I when I graduated from school. So, my siblings were a lot younger. Um, but for me I was, you know, yeah, just that that sort of leaving, you know, getting to the 18 age and all of that. What did you do then at 18?

So I went to uni. I was going to be a high school teacher. That's what I wanted to be. And I fell in.

What actually happened was I was working in retail and I managed to get a a little gig doing um like just workplace training, just like running like information sessions. And I remember at the time I uh I I took this full-time job at work cuz uni you could always pull a job, whatever. And I took this this job, well, not a full-time job, but it was a part-time job with like set hours. And I remember I said to my my boss or my team leader at the time, I said, um, oh, I'm going to need to take like a couple of weeks off cuz I've got to do P for uni.

Y and I remember she was like, um, sorry, Chris, just so you know, you're not casual anymore. Like, you just can't take off. And I'm like, oh, well, I've got uni. And she's like, yeah, just just and like, no, no, you've taken a part-time job.

It's fixed hours. It's it's not you're not casual. Like, it's not you've got no annual leave. It's just you just got to kind of remember like not not who do you think you are but just like just remember what you signed up for.

Yeah. And at the time I actually was like okay then. So I actually got rid of uni. I actually okay then.

So I actually when I say got rid of uni I dropped the education degree and I just continued with my bachelor of uh geography and politics just like those two things. Um cuz I was going to be a high school geography teacher. That's what I was going to what I was going to be. And then I just did the degree and then it was only a couple of years later that I went specifically and trained as an adult educator.

So, I got this really cool vibe working with adults, um, working in workplaces. And I was like, actually, um, my my analogy or my joke all the time is is that working with adults is still like being in a school because adults can behave just as childish as as kids. Just as childish. You get the best of both worlds.

Um, and then I went and and specialized um, and did a um, a graduate degree in in adult, it's called adult and tertiary education. Oh, wow. At Murdoch, Murdoch Uni. And um, then I I got into um, workplace training basically.

Um so Quantis is where it started, first started. Um and that was that huge project as I said around um the the new airports of the future they called it. Um but a huge transformation that was massive in terms of like project management transformation, a huge a lot of stakeholders. Um and then um moving to Adventure World, which was a small family-owned business, but again the principles were the same, but it was a full transformation shift of the culture at the time.

um and a real you know not not slow burn but a good couple of years of what made you not become a teacher? Well the fact that I ended up teaching adults and I dropped the education degree. I just never wanted to go back into schools. I I I I was now I was think you know thinking sitting at a practice school for you know 3 months or whatever like that just you know when I was working I just wanted to keep that momentum up.

So it was probably just I was keen to be working. So how long were you so you you done your union all that then went Quantis. How long were you Quantis for? I was at Quantis for two to three years.

Yep. And then went to event. Yeah. And interestingly with Quantis, that's not a long time bearing in mind.

It was a really I'm surprised how how short that time went. And the reason why I I have no problem in saying it now. Um I remember I had some really supportive leaders. Um and I was very keen as you imagine.

I was I actually applied for the graduate program. Um I got through to I think oh and there's a funny story but maybe save it for another time. I got through to um the like the second final round and I I didn't obviously make it um and then you know I was really keen to you know to get promoted I guess and and whatever and Quantis were really good about that but the problem with Quantis is that you know training only hit a particular point and then you have to move to Sydney. Um not I might have moved into Sydney but the opportunities were all in Sydney you know once you once you hit your area.

So they were giving me all of these like I'm not saying giving me of course I interviewed and and all of that but they were sort of always saying career focused. Oh Chris you know you interested in this job do you want to um potentially you know have an interview for that and we got this position that opened up that you might like but they it was always taking me away from from being in front of a classroom. when the adventure world came up, but when that came up I was very happy enough time at Quantis and I really wanted to I mean we did the project the the new check-in um service had changed completely that was a huge thing but I just yeah I was I was really keen to just keep in in So you must have been about 25 when you went to Adventure World. Yeah.

28 you would have started the business roughly. Oh I know maybe 24. Yeah 24 25. Yeah.

Yeah, around then. Um, and then I was probably, yeah, just under 30, 20, 28. Yeah. When I started my business, I was at event.

Well, I was at eventual for. So, you've been in business 10 years now. And you're 38. Yeah.

37, 38. Yeah. So, that's 20 years. Couple years at uni.

Couple years at Quantis, 5 years old. Yeah. So, okay. So, we're going over everything there.

So, I've been in business 20 I've been working for 20 Well, I've been delivering. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. When I left uni, I I started at Cornis, you know, that was that was 20 2010 when I was training when we did the airports of the future program.

So, so we're talking 16 years of training service. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's um and this is the bit I really like. That's why I go back over like when you're born, where'd you go? Because all the little learnings from your parents both working flat out in the business, you know, sitting there watching Foxtail to, you know, you don't realize how much that stuff impacts you. You learn that you got to get done.

The survival bit, parents working long hours, you going into business. Um you know, your dad taking the risk. You've done the same. even though he probably said, "Do you really want to do it?" Yeah, we I think we follow we we follow a lot like that that kind of stuff.

And then obviously um your dad your dad getting sick would have been a big part, you know, um when he was 10 years into business. Then you started your business and then obviously met your wife. What year did you get married? I know I went to your wedding.

What year was it? We got married 2019 in in August. It was a winter wedding. That's right.

And I remember I said to Brer, I said, "Oh, you know, this is in 2019." "Oh, why don't we just get married next year in 2020?" And and and she's like, "No, no, no, no, 2019." I was like, "Oh, you know, is is there?" Sure enough, if we if we got married in Well, actually, no, if we got married in 2020, the restrictions would have been over because I remember we actually had our son christened on his on our wedding anniversary and we were allowed people there. It was it was it was done. But imagine planning a wedding during CO. So, I'm glad that that we got married.

And what date did you get married? Uh 17th of August. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh yeah. 17th of August. Um 2019. Um yeah.

So that was that was then and then yeah, I'd already been in business for a few years and Brianna, you know, from the moment I met her, you know, in those early days, in fact, I actually met her when we um when I started the business and I'd already launched the business, but it was very early on. And I think sorry why I was just pausing there is is because she um she's been you know from those early days um so supportive of of of the business and of me working and then on and then on from that that on as well you know as we've had kids andly just keeping the business. So what year did you meet? Sorry.

2016. That was 16. Yeah that was right then, wasn't it? Yeah.

Three years you know before we got married and you know then the rest is coming up to Yeah. another anniversary now and well it's 10 years since we met this this year now coming up in oh yeah August so no it's been it's been a good ride. Yeah. What was um and I remember talking to you then when you started the business and um and I don't think once again I don't think we probably stop and reflect enough on like how once again the same risk your dad took when he left.

Like I remember talking to you and you're like and obviously you're in a niche like that's really hard to to know where you rev your like just to you know um but I remember having them chats with you even when you first started like you're a year in and um and just how how much that impacts you. I think you nailed it though before you you got all that your your story your fairy tale kind of come together how it came together really really good like you know you jumped over started the business very supportive wife um or partner back then and then obviously got married kids you know the whole piece how it's all come together yeah the other just one thing I was reflecting on and it only happened recently in 2024 it was 100 years since my uh in fact a lot of my great-grandparents because even though my grandparents were born in Croatia my great-grandparents that first immigrated ated um from Yugoslavia to to come here. And I I was actually reflecting on my dad spoke very highly of his his grandfather. So my great-grandfather and his brother um and one of the things about them is they came here in 1924 cuz we we did the history of it and they came to um work on the sugarcane fields in in like inval far north Queensland uh and cut that and they did that and cut some sugar for a couple of years and then they ended up just basically going into business for themselves.

This was the interesting thing. They were like, you know, in their early 20s. And but what I what I found so fascinating is that their jobs changed from they owned a a vineyard. They were, you know, vineyards.

They they they produced wine in the Swan Valley. Um they got into, you know, property. I think they owned like a billyards and pool um business. Um then they got into, you know, a bit of property development and that sort of stuff.

But you start to actually kind of weigh up what they did between 1924 and basically, you know, probably the the 60s when they when they retired, they just did so many different things. And that's the thing. It's like, you know, they they were they were all in business for themselves eventually. They all were.

They never worked for for people in um so very entrepreneurial spirit. But I just love how there was probably no career trajection back then. There was no, you know, I'm I'm worried about what people and pivot pivot pivot and and but we use the word pivot a lot, but they just changed what they did. One thing leads into another.

Um, and you know, they done what they needed to do back then. And I think that's why we're so lucky these days, right? Honestly. Yeah.

Which doesn't bother me when I start thinking now around, you know, how my my product is going to evolve or my message or whatever. It happened back then, right? As needed. Exactly.

It's what you got to do. But look how different the jobs are now compared to back then. It would have been a hard yaka back then. Oh, it would have been.

Exactly. And that that teaches you a lot around persistence and and stuff like that and how hard they worked as immigrants for our benefits as a younger generation. And I always say um I always say like about the tractor and the you know from the from the horse and like talking about tech and being impatient like imagine like back then the the change from doing things by hand you know horse and cart then to tractor you know and just even it's not tech tech but it's like it's still technology and evolution right? Yeah.

And like imagine the times when say the tractor broke down I had to go back to horse and car like they'd be like that same impatient bit cuz they're so used to like you know technology evolving. But these days it's we're talking about swiping to pay for things and but even I mean and one one person that I I respect obviously who teaches me a lot even to this day is my my father-in-law um and my wife's family. they they're farmers or they were farmers and um and it's one of those things that you know we we we took the kids actually to the Darren field days last year to see the machinery and just you know see some farming stuff and I was saying to my father-in-law you know how how um you know you know what do you think of these machines you know and he just reflects back on you know how even today compared to even 20 years ago we're not talking horse and park we're talking just other harvesters the sheer size of them the scale what they can do the comfort the comfort all that sort of stuff accuracy Exactly. And he was doing a lot of that, you know, on his own and mainting it's one of those industries that you I mean, you say horse and cart and then we start talking about apps, but you've still got to remember that there are there are farmers that are still using, you know, tractors and but the technology of tractors has changed.

So, oh, it's like transport trucks and all that as well. Talking about I was talking about with a client yesterday, you can't get a driver because it's an old road ranger. like everyone wants these new 904s and and you know cuz they're comfy all the kind of stuff which I suppose naturally humans do they always want the better stuff but it makes getting someone really hard if you haven't got that right and then operated Yep. Yeah, definitely.

And um it' be the same with farming, right? Even cost maintenance, it comes back to that as well. And the cost for, you know, what yield you get and all that like technology makes a big difference, right? Yeah, it does.

I also feel just one thing just that sticks in my mind. I don't know why it's coming up, but one of the things around um patience is and I look at my father-in-law as as a very patient person. Um the the whole thing of that you can't you can't winge about the weather when you're in farming. And I know you didn't forget that a lot that you know something doesn't go when I say something doesn't go your way I mean it might be something that's not the outcome that you wanted or something that's taking longer than it needed to or uh or you know someone might even say we'll defer it from this can't win about the weather you can't win about the weather and so true and sometimes I sort of feel that like you know is the whole hoham approach is that you know the the right you know they always say to you there's always there's always bigger things in the world to worry about and don't stress about it but it It's out of your control.

Right. Control. Exactly. And it goes back to that whole what's in your control, what isn't in your control, and it helps you, you know, um taught me so much.

It just the the demeanor, his his approach to to stuff. Um and I guess that's really cool when you see, you know, maybe the things that, you know, I didn't get in my upbringing in terms of patience and all of that. And you see that, you know, in in you can take a lot out of that, right? Yeah.

No point wasting energy and frustration on stuff that you can't change or you got no control over. But I'm still learning. There's still a long long long you know hall on that of you know being patient more and all of that sort of stuff. constantly learning that I'm miles ahead of where I was 5 10 years ago, but constantly I think reaction to stuff is what I constantly try and um self-evaluate all the time and when I walk I've always done it walk out of meetings and everything but just responding to things now different or not responding is probably a big point whether it's ex-wife whether it's business whether it's a client thing and not wasting and I think there's a big piece letting go of stuff is a big piece I know it's a bit change of subject but it comes back to that patience bit right and just Um, the way we react to stuff different stuff's always going to happen.

How we react to it or see it is probably the key. The repair is, you know, is key. Totally. Yeah.

Um, and I I think Yeah, I I I definitely agree with that. It's it's I'm not just nodding because it sounds good. You definitely do agree with that. And um I I maybe the the expression that I've heard more recently is just it's almost what you buy into.

I think that's that's the way I've I've sort of thought of it recently around, you know, is it worth, you know, buying into something or and it could be it could be someone's either having a rant, so let them rant. Do you need to buy into it? No. Someone's trying to bait you potentially.

Um, you know, that that might happen too or they try and get a reaction out of you, you know, do you buy into it or not? And um I doing stuff that doesn't matter. Yeah. And and and who said, you know, sometimes actually people look, I don't I don't like to talk about customer conflict a lot because I don't think service is just about conflict cuz it's not, but invariably it comes up.

And a lot of people come to me and they'll say they'll it's like almost they're in therapy and they'll say, um, I'm really ashamed that I'm an avoider. Like I avoid conflict. And part of me, and I'm saying this just just my own gut feeling. What's wrong with being an avoider?

Like you can either avoid like as in, you know, you can avoid it or, you know, say nothing or you can say something um whatever. And and there's sort of those options there. But I'm like, if you can mentally at peace, avoid saying something, but be at peace with it. That's the bit.

Avoid it, but be at peace with it. Not bottle up. Um and not bottle up. Oh, totally.

Yeah. Not bottle up. Um, I think that's that's a big thing. You know, what's wrong with avoiding if you if you're at peace, you know, with some not responding or even what you say no to.

Um, but yeah, avoiding I scenario driven. Yeah. Because you don't want to avoid something and we all do it, especially that's harder with weight sitting on our shoulders. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. But you don't want to bottle it up. But you're right. Like I actually I probably do it more and it's I do it more now than ever is probably just to not respond or ignore certain things.

As long as you don't bottle it up. As long as you don't bottle up. But I I've probably learned to go to not buy into something that would normally go back 5 years probably probably when I start a business with you. It probably pissed me off and you'd be on the phone.

You'd be like and and but you waste energy and time on it, right? And you're like, do you need to does it matter? And because you got bigger bigger stuff on your whole mindset changes. But also even and this is even this is even on the receiving end.

We and I'm not even referring to customer service here cuz it's what we're talking about is a lot deeper. But even on the receiving end of bad customer service, you know, have you ever gone home and taken your anger out on the family from what someone said to you at work or over the counter or whatever. And let's take that now into our relationships. I I find that, you know, coming home in a not in a bad mood, but but taking something out on on kids or uh partners or just spending time dwelling on, you know, here's what happened today.

I I find that that's I don't want to I don't even know if it's if negative energy is the right Well, it is. You're not you're not present. Yeah. And a client of mine actually a couple of years ago told me how they come home and they'll go to their spot first or I used to sit in the car he decompress.

I used to sit in the car heaps. So I probably naturally done it. Didn't realize but then half time you sit in the car you're you're on the phone, right? But it is a big piece to try and like let go before you go in.

Now that's hard when you start business. I reckon it be it's easier for me now cuz you know you're in but in the first 3 to 5 years that's right that's the hard bit there is sacrifice there and I don't think it should be perfect everyone talks about work life balance I think work life balance is it a thing or is it depends what suits you and we go back to what you're saying there um if I understood that that gap that decompress a bit better I'd probably might even still be married you know like how well how to do it and how to do it quickly y and Yeah. Not carry it home, but you also don't want to bottle it. So, there's a bit because you one thing I always gave Michelle, right, like she was my rock when it come to that.

Yeah. I worked 10 15 hours a day, out a lot, all that stuff. And um it was just work, work, work. I probably wasn't present where I shouldn't be.

Would I change it? Probably not. There's probably a couple of moments I would. Yeah.

Um I was just so work focused. And what one I regret is when my boy broke his leg and my wife took me to the hospital. I look at it now. I should have went, but it was like the first year I actually wasn't even in your office yet.

It was just like madness cuz you got to pay yourself like and you don't you don't want to put that pressure on the wife. But like you look back now how how important like you were saying about your wife being supportive. How important all that is and it comes back to that bit when you come home you're frustrated. You don't decompress or leave it at the door and you come in and they do cop a bit.

Yeah. I take me out of them. You know what I mean? And I I think they naturally know that it's not personal.

It's not nothing. It's they you know and then they pull you up from time to time. you're like, "Fuck, I have been like that for 3 days." Yeah, I have carried on and it's good for them to say to you, you know, take a chill, take a break, you know. Um that's they're the bits and I got a mate going through it right now actually and they're the bits where you need to talk later when you're good and you need to communicate um you know in your marriage them bits because doing business to sacrifice the long hours or the pressure or you're going for a tender or well your name's on the door you know your name it's it's it's the buck stops with you so every founder is going to I think has to take things you know maybe more I don't want to say more seriously they can't just walk away at the end of the day but I think mentally you still got to be able to you to do that.

Um, if it's bring bad energy, I guess it's if it's I I talked to my business partner now and I'm like I kick his ass a bit. He's he's the same I was 6 years ago. So, he's like going hard, right? Late nights and then breaks, looks after the kids, has dinner, then goes back on the computer and I'm like trying to tell him, but you can only but I think at that age or at that point of business, you're in that motion like you've got to go through it and learn it yourself.

But I'm always like, go take your wife to lunch. Go do them little bits, right? And it comes back to that decompress. Totally.

They they they cop a lot cuz you come home, you're on the phone, client's not happy, what whatever it is, right? And um it's realizing it, I think. And go back to the uh what did you say earlier? Uh holding the mirror up basically like self-evaluation.

I think you were talking about self-reflection. Self-reflection. Um and you need to I think I think it's um it's a big point. Definitely.

The best thing around I always I was actually taught this um by my wife. The the best thing to um to monitor how you react when it comes to time um is how you react when someone screws you over on Facebook Marketplace. Um that's that's a really you know there's that always that that adage of you know if you want to see someone's true colors you know watch how they treat a waiter or a waitress or what now it's Facebook Marketplace. How do you react when someone screws you over on Facebook Marketplace?

And I think um that really gives you an idea of you know just what how what time means to you but also gives you an idea of of how time using time as an example how time everyone's got a different relationship to time you know um someone who says you know yeah I'll be there between 3 and 5 or I'll be there in 15 but they'll be there in an hour's time or I might come today you know that that vagueness or even in your personal life you know if you've ever had a a birthday party with family and there's one member of your family that you've had to tell to I'm there an hour before everybody else, you know, they'll they'll be late or whatever. Everyone's got a different relationship to time, but you get to the self-reflection on that I think is really is really powerful. It is. And uh and as you get older, I think you realize that it's one thing you don't get back, right?

And it's the most important um commodity or value or whatever. And um it's like business, right? Why do we do business? Is it because you want a million dollars in the bank or pay yourself a couple hundred grand, whatever?

You can nearly do that by not taking on all the and the pressure and and all that kind of stuff, right? Um, but I think it's flexibility for later in life. That's why the sacrifice is true. And I watched my father-in-law and all that and they went through the business.

They taught me a lot about that because later it's for later, right? That's why you go back to them days we just talking about before where there's pressure between when you get home. I think there needs to be a bit of that. It's all part of going if it was easy everyone would do it, right?

But going back getting older now, the time piece is like once again, I could be flat out today can't can't answer a phone to someone, but then I could go take 3 hours this afternoon if I want. It's what I pick. And that's why the whole busy word, you know, it's more about productive and priority. If someone rings me and I don't want to answer it, that means they're down my priority list.

That's right. Everyone's always busy. Yeah. But someone else rings, I could answer it instantly.

Or a client rings, you answer it. When I texted you to say, "Let's go shopping." You respond, I think you responded to me that night. you were like that there like one minute later you were like straight away I'm stoked. I'm like let's do it.

Old school relationship once again importance, right? Go back to the whole haven't spoke. Yeah. Um and value, you know, value relationship, value time.

Totally. Yeah. Exactly, man. That's why it's always good.

All right. Um two things. We'll wrap it up. Yeah.

Um hey, let's um check the score. Yes. Check the score. Uh this could go good or bad.

Let's have a look. Oh, good. Yeah. one one nil full time.

Croatia got it. Croatia got it through to the next. There you go. Just a good Oh, when I saw them lose to England the other day.

But no, that's good. So, they're obviously what's next. So, they're playing Ghana on Sunday morning. Um I'll have a happy ex-in-laws and wife and kids.

You know what? I was actually wanting to go to the game. My brother-in-law lives in in Toronto and um the cost was just I was genuinely going to be there today. that was the game I was going to go to cuz you know I could have stayed with him and I know some other people in Toronto and you know it would have been like a home game.

There's so many Croatians in Canada. Uh it's not funny but um yeah look 54th minute got the goal and that was it. So nice. How good's that?

There we go. Yeah. Yeah. You noticed I've been on edge.

Just kidding. Just been chilling. I do have a soft spot for them. Obviously Marin Croian and getting married in Split and my kids and the in-laws and that be they would have loved it.

It was good. I'm glad they won. Um hopefully they go all right Sunday. Yeah.

Fingers crossed. So So two things. Yeah. One is one or two names who I could get on here.

This is the compound effect, right? Well, good good stuff. Good stuff. Well, you've already had um you've already had Dave Cla.

Mhm. Which is pretty cool. This is my first um Jeez, I know like speakers. I'm just trying to think cuz then I'll get my team to reach out to you to maybe connect if I don't know them or if it's someone we mutually know.

Obviously there's a there be heaps I it's weird like I don't I mean I have to let me give it some thought and I it's one of those things I I just can't no one comes off my of my mind directly because it's working in business is so lonely when you don't know like you don't know many people but you've got a lot of people that kind of do similar stuff in the industry but you if you're not seeing them all the time you don't think of them. Yep. even if it's someone I got to work on, haven't spoke to for ages. But, you know, I look at I look at people, you know, that I, you know, really respect um in the industry um is a good mate of mine, uh a guy called Mike House.

Yep. He um he's a is a legend of a person and we've worked together before and I've known him for many years and he he helped do some proofing in my book. Um but he uh is a is all about survival. Um, and he's he does a lot about resilience and he is just a a legend of a guy.

I haven't spoke to him for years. I don't know him well. I think I met him through you actually. Um, Mike House and I' I've got another good mate of mine, Jeremy Watkins.

He is um he's he's just an awesome human being and I reckon those those two um when I look at the people that I sort of reach out to and see regularly, I might uh hold you to that one. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Let's let's put you in touch.

Definitely. Um, yeah, it'll relate to the whole journey thing a lot. And that's the thing, there's no rule book with the journey, right? It's like everyone's got different books, different chapters, and it's like how you got here.

And like I've had people on here that aren't business people cuz people are like, "Oh, you've got business people on there." And I'm like, "No, no, cut all that out. There's no rule book. No, no formalities. It's like what's your journey?" And then people are like, "Fuck." You know?

So, it's really cool. And I suppose the last bit which ties into it doesn't matter who's on here. What did you get out of today? Um I I got out of today how all of the things that you can just you just talk about um oh sorry how you can draw no just draw parallels draw connections you just back to back to what you said about the journey that that you know um you know what we do in business is one thing you know what we do in our personal life is the other thing but I think cumulatively it comes out and and I'm not saying that we've done timeline therapy this morning and going through our highs and lows but I think fundamentally that's where it comes from that that life shapes you in a in a certain way and you know if you're having questions around you know you know just what you did in life and how you got there and then what learnings do you take I think that's a really important part and I think I don't know if everyone I I don't know but you know I'm I'm maybe fortunate that I've leaned into that a lot around what shapes you to make you unique in terms of you know you can't be like other people when you're when you're on stage when you're in front of audience you can't you can't pretend to copy someone so I think for me I've been really in touch with it lately um you know um even you know writing and saying dad's eulogy you you you draw a lot of connections uh there as well but even being a dad of kids yourself you you're learning as well so I think you know this is almost like this is the right time for this this podcast Imagine imagine if we did this a year ago maybe a lot of the the neurons that I'm connecting maybe wouldn't have been done you know so I think that's that's yeah the best thing I um and I haven't yet cuz I haven't been going that long but I always say all my guests, I actually want to get them back on even if it's a quick 30 minute like in 6 months in 12 months to go back over.

That doesn't happen a lot in podcasts. People come on go and it's transactional and it's gone. Yeah. Um even like replaying old reels like when I stopped recording the other week just how much of it made a difference cuz once again you watch the same thing over again.

I'm really perception out of it is unreal. I want to watch the recording like I'm genuinely you know sometimes you do podcast interviews and I'm not not criticizing others but you you know Yeah. Yeah. you get interviewed and whatever and it just joins your media box, you know, you never pull out again.

But but I'm genuinely, you know, keen to watch this again and and and slice it up a little bit myself. I'll um I'll get it over to the editor soon. Um yeah. All right, cool.

That's good, man. Let's wrap it up there. This has been awesome. It's been wicked.

I don't know how long we went for, but um it's really really good. Um nothing else you want to bring up? No, man. I think it's it's What do they say?

Like what I said at the at the start with with artists, you know, you're not going to finish the podcast. You're going to abandon it. You're like, "Do we need to add more?" Probably. Do you know what I might do actually off the back of this cuz I've just got the hello@thejourney.au email working and all that properly.

So we we're trying to get all that in order. So then like in a perfect world, I actually got shirts and that coming as well. Um you get an email, there's a hey do this like really get the brand out there and then send out weekly fortnightly. that whole come back for 30 minutes or 45 whatever I make it up.

I might call it something and I might actually start from now when I get off I upload do all that and then this week and I'll give it to my assistant to program it for in 6 months send you a meeting invite even if it changes then but at least put it in the calendar cuz I keep saying it but I haven't gone really dive down into that. That's the best thing about you and me anyway like we we haven't caught up but then the first thing we did is we booked a date in. I'm big on that. You know, I hate and I know we got to wrap up, but I I love that that I It frustrates me when people say, "Oh, yeah, Chris, we should catch up." And then we don't.

So, I've got to a point now when someone says, "We should catch up." I I actually send them the date then cuz it's off me. It's it's there. And and sometimes I do get people who, you know, message me. Look, I'm just saying, you know, not bitter about it at all clearly, but 18 months later, they're like, "Yeah, Chris, we should really catch up." And I scrolled to the previous message, and the previous message was, "How does the 23rd of June Yeah.

2023 sound question mark nothing and then hey Chris we should really catch up. Um so I always think like that's what we did with this we put today in when we were catching up last time. So it's so I got like like I said I got like 200 plus names I just offloaded right but then it's like when I when I catch up with someone or someone's really ready to come on and you chat it's like let's lock it in you know so I haven't booked out like 10 weeks who's coming I'll probably get to a point four or five weeks ahead. I was like that.

But it's like it's really, you know, you go catch up with someone like you and then um you're engaged to come on. It's like it's the best time. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. All right.

Cool. Awesome, man. It's been fun. Thanks, man.

Appreciate it. Awesome.